Thursday, June 08, 2006

The Gloves Are Off

Christians are destroying the fabric of our society. Just listen to Ann Coulter spew her hatred toward the widows of 9/11, Pat Robertson call for the assassination of a foreign leader, Jerry Falwell blame feminists and gays for 9/11 and it becomes very clear that Christian activists are using God to spread hate and create divisions that serve their narrow personal agendas at the expense of American society.

We have worked long and hard in this country to overcome our fears and bigotry and have even taken great steps, like amending our constitution, to better reflect our values as an open, free and fair democracy. To paraphrase Maya Angelou, when we knew better, we did better. We righted the wrong of slavery, we righted the wrong of excluding blacks and women from voting, we even tried to help desegregation along by bussing students and providing guidelines for college admissions and hiring practices. Now, because right-wing Christians were unable to stop this progress all along the way, they have found in George W. Bush an ally that will help them turn back time and roll back the hard fought progress we’ve made.

Make no mistake, it was Christians that killed “witches” in Salem, it was Christians that walked around in white robes and hoods while they lynched black men and burned down their homes, it is Christians that are willing to kill abortion doctors in an effort to get the rest of us under their God’s thumb and it is Christians that are continuing every day to promote homophobia that contributes to the violence toward, and discrimination of, gay people. Perhaps religious tolerance has outlived its usefulness in this country.

Christians are, by the millions, enjoying books that describe in gory detail the torture and annihilation of us non-believers and now they are set to unleash video games for their youth that will provide them the opportunity to live in a virtual world where killing non-believers on the streets of New York will make them winners. This scares the crap out of me because Christians already believe fantastic things that defy logic, how can we be assured that these Christian youth will be able to make the distinction between the fantasy game on their X-box and the world outside their window? Where is all the Christian outrage about violence on this one? Or are they hypocrites that find violence in the name of God laudable?

Why am I supposed to have tolerance for them when they have none for the rest of us? I’m all for a “live and let live” society within the parameters set by law, but all groups, Christians included, must abide by that same principle in order for it to work. But we all know that far too many of them don’t, and their religious freedom is impinging on the constitutional rights of others, surely our founding fathers would be appalled.

We have a very vocal minority in this country that is hell bent on creating a society that is divided, angry and hostile toward progress. Christians are the most dangerous special interest group that is currently lobbying our elected leaders and they have degraded our public discourse and torn apart the complicated yet beautiful patchwork of diverse interests and needs that has served us well. They are contributing to the dumbing down of our society by promoting creationism in our schools, ridiculing science and by forcing their black and white views on a world of grays.

Christianity is too often used to promote a narrow worldview that cannot be squared with the complicated prospect of dealing effectively with globalization, geo-political conflicts and an increasingly diverse population. Nuance has become a bad word in politics, but it is most critical in governing to understand that complex problems can only be solved with nuanced solutions. These loudmouthed few have a disproportionate amount of influence on our political process and on the way the issues are debated. Tolerating the religious views of others, in private life is fine, but tolerating their religious views in matters of law and policy is a mistake that we will pay a very high price for.

Now certainly, not all Christians are bad, evil, bigoted people, it would be ridiculous for me to paint them all with the same brush, but Christians that continue to take a passive approach to dealing with their most vocal advocates are contributing to the problem, and by their silence are giving their consent. Those of us outside the church carry no influence with the Ann Coulters, Sam Brownbacks, Pat Robertsons, Bill O’Reillys and Jerry Falwells that speak so loudly on behalf of Christians. Only those within the church have any sway with them at all. Until Christians start speaking out en masse, the rest of us have no assurances that their religion has been hijacked for purposes they don’t support. In fact, their silence suggests the opposite, and these regressive bigots are furthering an agenda with broad Christian support. If that is not the case, by all means stand up, speak up and clear out the rubbish. For all of the damage that these loudmouthed hate mongers are doing to this country, they certainly aren’t doing real Christians any favors either.

38 Comments:

Anonymous Betty Cracker said...

Right-wingers often condemn mainstream Muslims for not denouncing Islamic fanatics, and I think the wingnuts have a point – if your religion is being hijacked by fanatics who are doing massive harm in your name, damn it, speak up!

But what’s good for the goose is sauce for the gander, and Christians of good will have a corresponding obligation to denounce the bigotry and harm being perpetrated in their names. Otherwise, I think it’s reasonable to assume that they tacitly approve.

12:48 PM  
Blogger isabelita said...

Hello, Liberal Girl Next Door. I introducedmyself to you at the last Drinking Liberally session.
You know, these fanatical "Christians" are really little different than fanatical Muslims. The US version, however, not only wants power over us morally, they want to feed off the government teat just like big business. They ARE a big business, really. They want control, but they also want resources they see as going to the godless welfare recipients. Probalby into world dominatiion as much as their Islamic counterparts, if you consider the modern form of the Crusades, which is proseltyzing. As you say, not all Christians are fanatic. And I too have been wodnering why the moderate voices of Christianity and Judaism and Buddhism are not speaking louder. Are they fearful?

1:23 PM  
Anonymous davide said...

Ann Coulter didn't have anything kind to say about liberal or progressive Christians-- even Episocpalians. I think the premise that Christians are Evil is dead wrong. The evangelical/fundamentalist movement is barely 100 years old. Indeed, the liberal democratic movement is founded upon progressive Christianity and liberal Judaism. The horror of the New Christianity we have today was due to the virulent anti-Communism of the 1950s, which coupled Church and free market capitialism. Still, progressive Christianity was winning the day until Pope John Paul II arrived. He scotched Vatican Two, ended ecumenicalism, suppressed Liberation Theology and through a bizarre mix of nostalgia, charisma, and doublethink destroyed the Roman Catholic church and handed a victory to Televangelists and carpetbagger Baptists of America's Bible Belt. It is so sad to remember what the hottest topics in Christian thought were in 1979 and what they are today. Think Hans Kung, Gregory Baum, Thomas Merton, and Edward Schillebeckx. Bernard-Henri Levy is right: American liberals are clueless about what is happening in religion. I think liberals have to join progressive faiths and strengthen them if they want to compete with the Christian Right. The shocking truth is Secular Humanism is not an organized religion; it has no leaders and no institutions; and it will die if the progressive and liberal organizations that gave it life wither away. Now, go out and write a cheque to Bishop Desmond Tutu or the Dalai Lama.

2:25 PM  
Anonymous Dale Hippert said...

LG~

Well said. Short of arresting and 'rendering' these yahoos or calling in Predator drone stirkes on their sleeping heads, I'm all for a 'gloves off' openly contempous response to the intolerant blatherings of all faith based, loud mouthed
clowns who want to impose their 'faith' on the rest of us.

I truly believe that you can refer to Coulter and her ilk
as 'Christian Taliban'. In fact much of the tone of your blog justifiabaly lends itself to the very terminolgogy applied to the objects of our 'war on terror'!

3:31 PM  
Blogger MainSpark said...

But you didn't even touch upon their claim that Christianity is under attack!!

And, boy, don't they have deep war chests?!?

8:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey speaking of fanatical Muslims.......did anybody hear who got blown up yesterday?

The Z-Man go BOOM!

Good news, eh?

8:43 PM  
Blogger Godlessfriend said...

That's certainly a matter of perspective. I'm not in the business of trusting the sources where that information came from at the present time. If he was bad...so be it. Last I checked, there aren't any decent cultures that celebrate someones death regardless of the allegations against them. It is apparent that the powers that be do appreciate a little division, chaos or any other good reason to drop a 500 pound bomb. The boys at the Carlyle Group are smiling but they will certainly need to find some new shit to blow up so the military-industrial complex can keep the cash flow comming. Thanks for the post

8:53 PM  
Blogger GraemeAnfinson said...

amen!!

10:21 PM  
Blogger artMonster said...

The same way BushCo is making business seem downright evil, Coulter et alii are doing the same for Christianity. There needs to be a whole lot of push-back...

11:39 PM  
Anonymous Betty Cracker said...

Davide, I would never write a check to the Dalai Lama; he is an anti-gay bigot. But most of his liberal Western admirers don't see that -- they choose to concentrate on the warm and cuddly aspects of his teachings and ignore the harmful dogma.

Your point about evangelical fundamentalism being a modern construct depends very much on how you define it. The fever pitch among congregants of organized religions seems to wax and wane in an endless cycle. One could credibly make the argument that The Great Awakening that began in American churches around 1730 was one such fever pitch. As were the Crusades, the rise of Puritanism, etc. So there's nothing all that new about what we're experiencing now.

Personally, I'm not going to support the further spreading of magical thinking, even if it's packaged in such a way as to appear less offensive.

3:18 AM  
Anonymous everyman said...

A good read for sure.

If you wage war on Christianity you will lose.

If you wage war on bad Christians, you may win. So too with bad churches.

The Christians who wish to eliminate Islam will paint you as Islamic sympathizers.

Be very careful what you attack. The Christian Right has already painted liberals as godless and are organizing to destroy anything that is not in their post-apocalyptic vision.

The battle against liberals is one part of the war to bring Christian theocracy to earth, as foretold in the Bible. Some people see Revelations as a blueprint to Christ's coming.

As the war unfolds over the next few decades, you and your children will find yourselves forced to choose between Christian morality and secular principles. I do not know where Buddhists, Hindus, or Sikhs will end up.

I have no guidance to give. Yet I will leave you with the comment that I heard yesterday from Michael Savage of The Savage Nation: "Mark my words, within 5 years , we will be having a national debate about whether Islam should be considered a religion."

Who would have thought that someone would predict that freedom of religion would be up for debate in the US?

"The times they are a changin"

5:03 AM  
Anonymous Jonathan said...

Religious extremism is clearly handicapping our species’ ability to evolve. Their rejection of all things that conflict with their “teachings” is holding our civilization back and hindering our ability to deal, in a meaningful way, with the issues that confront us.

The fundamentalist Christians should be feared. There is no limit to what these people will do in the name of their religion. The frightening thing is that they truly believe that they are doing the right thing. And that they will be rewarded in the next life if not in this one. The fundamentalist Christians are not wholly different from the fundamentalist Muslim Jihadists who killed 3000 people on 9/11. They are cut from the same cloth.

I’m an atheist, an engineer with a data driven decision making process. I have seen no data, no facts, no cogent argument that compels me to believe in God, the afterlife, heaven and hell, or any of the other fairy tales that are “religion”. I am not offended by anyone simply because they are religious. I only ask that they allow me to believe what I believe and that they not impede progress solely because it conflicts with their religious tenets.

5:23 AM  
Blogger Charles said...

DavidE makes very good points.

At my blog, Mercury Rising, I have described this post as an example of anti-Christian hate, a position that I invite you to debate.

To make it clear, I am not saying you are A Bad Person. I have heard similar sentiments from many people. Your essay is just a useful example, since it is on the record and has been amplified by a liberal website, The Smirking Chimp.

Defining large groups of people as the enemy is how the right operates. It's a strategy of conflict and division. Defining 90% or so of the America people as the enemy is a strategy guaranteed to lead to defeat.

Therefore, I am saying that you are wrong and wrong in a way that harms your cause and mine: keeping America a place where everyone may believe what s/he wishes.

10:21 AM  
Anonymous lester said...

I don't think even pat robertson or , heck, osama bin laden would say something as awful as ann coulter said about the 9/11 widows. and it was completely random, who has haerd anything from the 9/11 widows since like 2 years ago?

If a world leader said something like that they would be ostracized. if not invaded

10:23 AM  
Blogger The (liberal)Girl Next Door said...

Charles--I have read your post and responded to it. Other than labeling me anti-Christian and taking one section of my post and analyzing it without putting it into context, I don't have a problem with what you wrote about my post. In fact, you kind of made my point for me by pointing out that Christians that actually follow the teachings of Jesus are indeed a minority in your view.

The problem is bigger than just a "few bad apples" and requires more than simply denouncing Christians that DO evil (like those that helped Eric Roudolf) but instead requires exposing and challenging those that are PREACHING it as well.

Not being of the flock, my opinion means little, it is those on the inside have the best chance at correcting this particular problem. I have heard people question Ann Coulter on her approach, I have heard them call her names (which I deplore) but what I don't hear are Christians challenging her position as a "good Christian." Surely I can't do that as effectively as one who belongs to the same faith and practices that faith in a way that Jesus intended.

Personally, I think religion is silly but I'm willing to tolerate the choice of others to practice any religion they choose, up to the point that it starts infringing on my rights. My neighbor can believe in alien abductions and cover his house in tin foil to ward off spacecraft. But once he tries to force the rest of us to do the same, he's crossed the line. An organized Christian movement is crossing the line and if those from within don't want to push back, then I'll have to take the uncomfortable position of doing it myself. Luckily, I have the constitution on my side.

3:39 PM  
Blogger opeluboy said...

I think part of the problem here is that writers like Bradley-Martin (and far too many readers on this site) are being very selective as to who they listen to and what they read. She has certainly not done her homework.

There are millions of Christians opposed to the very issues she brings up.

Recently, the United Methodists, a huge denomination, have come out in opposition to the war. This is the church both Bush and Cheney belong to.

The Lutherans, Episcopaleans and Presbyterians years ago took strong peace stances as well as smaller groups that are always in this camp, like the Quakers and Mennonites.

For years, Churches for Middle East Peace (cmep.org) has been working for peace and justice. Check out their membership. Even the pope expressed outrage at the war. Do you have any idea how many churches and congregations sent letters and representatives to this administration before the illegal invasion to protest the act?

The problem here is the same one that exists in Israel: voices for peace and justice are silenced by the media. Don't think so? When was the last time you saw a pro-peace, pro-Palestinian rights Israeli on TV? A member of Gush Shalom? B'Tselem? Then all Jews must be for occupation and genocide. Their silence and inaction is allowing this to continue. The thing is, they are neither silent nor inactive. Daily members of these groups and others, like Rabbis Against Home Demolitions put not just their philosophy, but their bodies on the line to work for peace. Do you see them on TV? Then they must not be doing this.

You know, most of us who come to this site believe that electronic voting is a danger and that (at least) the last election was stolen. Yet the media still acts as if this is tinfoil hat stuff. 60% of Americans are now against the war. Is that reflected in the nightly news?

Remember, millions of us filled the streets of the world in the largest anti-war demonstration in the history of the planet. It did not stop the war. Millions of Christians are also voicing their anger and frustration daily. They are getting the same results. It is not that they are not trying. It is not that they don't repudiate the Falwells and Robertsons and Phelps of this world. It is that they are ignored by not only the government, but the media.

And by the way, bashing peoples' faith is not a remedy. These articles should not be about your particular disdain for people who believe in a god or have religious beliefs. Those whose response to pieces like this is nothing more than a rant against religion and a mocking of others show as little tolerance as those they are ranting about.

But that's just what I think, and I don't belong to a church and never will.

5:27 PM  
Blogger Yellow Dog said...

Your best written post ever!

6:50 PM  
Blogger The (liberal)Girl Next Door said...

Opeluboy--Of course there are millions of Christians that oppose this war and millions that opposed it before it was waged based on what they knew as well as the tenets of their faith. But there is still no denying, stolen election or not (by the way, I believe there was massive manipulation of the vote all across this country), that millions more still support it and all of the other issues I listed.

Of course there are blackouts of information on the MSM! It serves their interests to promote Christo-fascists like Coulter and O'Reilly and ignore any reasonable Christian voices that speak to the immorality of this war, of poverty and of injustice. And of course there are Christian people working hard in their own way, quietly or loudly, in their own communities, spreading peace and love instead of war and hate. Christians are not any better or any worse than the rest of us, there is good and bad found everywhere.

But that is not the issue and as I stated clearly in my post, it is a very vocal minority that unfortunately has the ear of the media and of our elected officials to the detriment of the rest of us. But because there is some benefit to Joe and Jane Christian sitting in the pews on Sunday, they are reluctant to speak out against tactics that have been, so far, extremely effective in furthering an agenda that they, at least in some part, support. If there wasn't something to be gained from these wedge issues, if there wasn't fear and bigotry to tap into, the politicians wouldn't keep trotting them out. That is a reality we must deal with.

How I feel about Christianity as a religion or how I feel about religion in general is not the issue. The issue is what is to be done about the hijacking of our government and the fact that the greatest tool the GOP has in getting and maintaining power is Christianity. It is the prod they use to keep their supporters in line and the blunt instrument they beat the rest of us with. Christianity may not suppress people, but those in power use Christianity to suppress people. It has always been, forgive me for not wanting it to always be.

7:46 PM  
Anonymous C-Guy said...

LG:

I can tell you have absolutely no concept of what is a true christian. If you think that it was "Christians" who wore the white robes and hoods, and murdered abortion doctors, than you really have no persepctives on who we are. Believing what you believe is the same as if I sat in a garage for a couple of days, and then called myself a car.

When Jesus comes into your heart, he transforms you from the inside-out. Those fools who wore white robes and hoods had ZERO concept of what Christiany is all about. They played being a christian by going to church, but nothing more. Imagine if I went up to the ski resort, sat in the lodge all day, never put on skis, and then called myself a skiier. It doesn't fly.

Yes, Christians believe abortion is murder, but murdering an abortion doctor is not a christian act. Eric Rudolph, the most proflic abortion doctor murderer, even admitted he was not a Christian, and was never motivated by christian principles.

Yes, Christians believe homosexulity is wrong and should not be sanctioned by the state in the form of marriage(and it's condemmed in multiple places in the Bible). However, a true Christian would never try to take away rights that we all have as human beings. As an employer, I had gay employees. I may not agree with their lifestyle, but if they can do the job better than anyone else, they get promoted (and yes, I have promoted them).

LG, a true christian is one that has been transformed in their heart by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, and is willing to let the Holy Spirit remake them into a renewed human being. Please remember that before you generalize us as hood wearing, abortion doctor killing nutcases.

9:49 PM  
Blogger The (liberal)Girl Next Door said...

C-guy--I would never label ALL Christians as anything and certainly not "hood wearin doctor killin nutcases". But what good does it do us to ignore history?

The reason I brought those things up is to make the point that the hood wearing lynchers were just as Christian as Ann Coulter, in other words, not very much. But me, an atheist, questioning the Christian bona fides of a self-proclaimed Christian like Ms. Coulter is not as effective as when true Christians challenge her.

Just as we suffer from American exceptualism, we suffer from Christian exceptualism too. Just because we think we are special, does not make us specially equipped to fix the rest of the world. And neither are Christians specially equipped to solve the problems in this country.

There is a separation of Church and State for a reason, to protect each from the other. Teaching morality in a church is great, legislating a specific brand of morality is not. Christianity is an important part of our history, but we are not a Christian nation. Christianity plays an important role in good works and charity, but good works and charity are not the domain of Christianity alone.

There is a peaceful co-existence possible, the church is just on a bender right now and grabbing a little too much power and influence. That is not good for democracy and in the end, wouldn't be good for the church either. Real Christians, as you describe, will likely prove the solution to this problem.

10:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Who lit the fuse on your tampon, bitc#?

There's nothing worse than a dumb, rug munching whor#, running her stupid mouth on her ridiculous vanity blog.

"Oh look at me, I'm a stupid whor#!" is a pretty lame theme for a website, Maybe you're on your period and that is making you stupi# in the head?

Perhaps you'd do better to just STFU and so suc# some guy's balls and keep that retarded mouth of yours busy doing something useful for a while?

8:43 AM  
Blogger The (liberal)Girl Next Door said...

Anonymous--Very Christian of ya, and as appealing as your suggestion is, I think I'll pass, but thanks for the thought.

11:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well said, LG.
One thing I always find interesting in these debates is when those from the right (or wrong, in this case) don't have the brain cells to construct a coherent argument in return, they resort to pathetic, sexually-based insults - especially when the insultee is a female and the insulter is a male. Really lets you know what those "Christian" extremist "males" think of women. And here I thought the right-wingers were so against sex with all of their attempts at banning birth control, condoms, sex ed, AIDS vaccines, HPV vaccines, and family planning. Obviously they're either in denial or so desperate for it that they have to write about it incessantly.....
As for religion - although it isn't for me (and I spent more than enough time in parochial school to know my bible passages as well as what "Christian" values are supposed to be, and Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, and Pat Robertson just don't make the cut - nor does Glenn Beck the CNN hate-spouter who is supposed to be a Mormon), I do see some people for whom it is their lifeline, and I don't begrudge them their need to believe in something beyond themselves as a means of finding hope or filling some empty corner of their life. There are some very good things that come out of religion and (some) religious organizations, and if they need religion to live a full or moral life, that is their choice -but, as you said - just don't force your religion on me!

My biggest issue with religion - and I mean any religion, not just the Christian fundamentalists - is when believers justify their inhumane actions based on their religion. The abortion clinic bombers are a prime example - they say they are saving innocent lives and justify their actions by citing specific bible passages, often taken out of context to serve their purposes, yet when taken as a whole, the Bible (and Christianity) does not advocate for murder of others. Some of these right-wing legislators conveniently put on the "Christian" armband just in time to justify their discriminatory actions or to defend their unethical or immoral behavior. (Hello Tom Delay!)

Ironically, I am temporarily living in a state that is definitely lacking in separation of church and state (hint: it's in the west), and where those supposed Christian values are working so well that the oh-so-pious (mainly GOP) legislators voted themselves a $15 million underground parking garage but wouldn't fund a $2 million legislative bill that would have given 40,000 low-income, elderly, and disabled citizens emergency dental care. Instead, some private citizen ends up volunteering $1 million of his own money to help out. Who's the REAL Christian in this story?
Thus I'll leave you with my favorite bumper sticker that is often seen around here. "Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church."

1:18 PM  
Anonymous karena said...

Liberal girl,

I am shocked at some of the arguments your post has raised. For example, the person who wrote about being a "true Christian" never seemed to grasp what you were saying, and that is that Christianity has been hijacked by a wealthy crazed political group of so-called Christians and their brethren remain largely silent. Sure, you hear about some churches denouncing the war, but they have no political clout. Dobson, Falwell, et al. have the political clout and backed by the MSM, who supports their claim of "wars on Christianity," they are going to change our country and constitution to a Christian form of Taliban. The crazy Warriors for Jesus mix military, bloody video games and other forms of violence in their preaching. Young girls in the group don tee-shirts of Christ on a Cross with messages like "Clothes to die for," or other such garbage. We have Robertson calling for asassinations. It is insane, but they are making political progress, and have been for years and their counterparts are silent. Great post.

1:47 PM  
Anonymous Dale Hippert said...

To "Anonymous...who lit the fuse.....?" There's nothing funnier than a room temperature IQ, dolphin spanking moron exposing his witlessness for everyone's
amusement!

Oh look, I have shit for brains is a very effective theme for your comments, but very unfair to shit.

When you're tired of playing neurosurgeon maybe you can remove your head from your ass and pour youself a nice steaming mug of STFU!

2:05 PM  
Blogger lecentre said...

Ann Coulter, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson are representative of Christians? They may represent a stream of though within the Republican Party, but you'll excuse me for challenging your assertion that they are representative of Christians.

They say they are, but what does that tell you? Nothing, because anyone can make that claim. Osama claims to speak for Muslims too, but you obviously can't claim they're representative.

Oh, and I'm a Jew, fyi. So yes, I agree that Christianity has a disgusting, bloody past. I think/hope that is truly in the past, though. Slandering/libelling (I can never remember which one is done in print) average Christians isn't helpful though.

9:03 PM  
Blogger The (liberal)Girl Next Door said...

lecentre--The point is that those you mention are not Christian in their behavior or speach but there is no denying that they can bring in the money for the GOP from church going Christians and they can certainly bring them out to the polls.

They are an arm of the GOP, but until people (Christians especially) start challenging their claims to being Christians, they continue to be an arm of the Christian church as well. Real Christians should chop that arm off.

If the numbers are right and 90% of this country self-identifies as Christian, certainly they could shut these people up if they wanted to (one simple phone call each to the news networks demanding they stop giving air time to these idiots would be a start). The fact that James Dobson, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are still being courted by politicians and Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter are on television every time I turn around, indicates to me that Christians must not be bothered all that much by this representation of their religion. If they were, surely they'd do something about it.

9:29 PM  
Blogger Godlessfriend said...

wonderful exchange...and good to see that the net is reaching the trailer parks...LOL.

10:06 AM  
Blogger Phyl said...

C-Guy, your remark about these not being "true Christians" is invalid.

You know why I think so? When I was a fundie Christian, I and my church used to laugh at all the Marxists who used to say, "Oh, you can't blame the atrocities in the Soviety Union, Albania, etc etc on communism -- those aren't 'true communists'. If a state were ever allowed to set up *true* communism, it would be nothing like that." Yet in every state purporting to be trying to follow communism -- the same result.

Now the laissez-faire capitalists, whose principles have been more and more and more injected into the economy of the world in the last quarter century, keep saying, "Oh, but the bad results you're seeing is because this isn't 'true capitalism'. If you would just give us carte blanche to set up a REAL capitalist state, everything would be different!"

Christians say the same thing, Muslims, left-wingers, right-wingers. Every last one of them explains away the atrocities that may be perpetrated by their particular group by saying, "Oh, but that's not TRUE [insert ideology here]."

Human beings can abuse EVERY ideology, and every ideology contains seeds of atrocities in it, meaning we have to be hugely vigilant at all times.

So by golly, yes -- these ARE "true Christians" just as much as every other ideological adherent is a "true whatever." Some may be worse than others, but when you find the same atrocities happening over and over again among people associated with a particular ideology -- that *IS* part of that ideology, and needs to be dealt with instead of explained away.

1:51 PM  
Blogger The (liberal)Girl Next Door said...

Phyl--I think you explained it perfectly! Thank you.

Another example: Joe Leiberman and I are both Democrats. If I think that Joe Leiberman is falsly claiming to be a Democrat while taking decidedly right-wing positions on the issues, it is up to me and my fellow Democrats to discredit him, call him on the floor and state loudly to the world that Joe Leiberman doesn't speak for me. If Leiberman wins the nomination again, that is a clear indication that he is a Democrat with broad Democratic support in his state. I can continue to call him a DINO if I want to, but that won't make it true. At that point it becomes necessary for me to re-evaluate what it means to be a Democrat and actively try to convince my fellow Democrats that I am right. Christians have no less of a duty to do the same within their own ranks.

5:46 PM  
Blogger Godlessfriend said...

LG and Phyl:

First, let me say that you two worked together and summed that shit up.

Secondly, everything you addressed in your comments has been addessed by those who created our Constitution. I am certain that they would be proud that two people so vigilantly teach and defend it. Thanks for the posts.

9:54 PM  
Anonymous FRANK SHERWIN said...

Let the record show T(L)GND is intolerant - the same thing she accuses people-of-faith as being.
I fear for my children if she ever gets real political power.

1:27 PM  
Blogger The (liberal)Girl Next Door said...

Frank--Asking the question does not make me intolerant. There is a big difference between tolerance and cowering silently in the corner because it's easier than having an uncomfortable debate. The former is a good idea (mostly), but the latter, not so much.

The right wing Christian activists are not preaching tolerance, I'm simply asking why, in that case, is it expected that the rest of us should tolerate their hateful movement, especially when it is not limited to speech, but includes a legislative agenda as well?

2:52 PM  
Anonymous maryam said...

I can't say that I know any true Christians. Do know some Muslims that act in a very Christian manner. What "The Liberal Plot to Destroy Christianity" and Tom DeLays "How to fight the war on Christianity" did to me was to make me, well, want to start a war on Christians. The New Testament of the Bible was translated, and, records Jesus' words. Christians would do well to read them. "Judge not lest ye be judged" and "love thy neighbor" are too that come to mind.

Very good post.

6:15 PM  
Blogger Godlessfriend said...

Frank,

Shouldn't you be working on those quack creationism books you scribble on about. Maybe you can find some youngsters and spew some hellfire and damnation speaches to them.

4:20 AM  
Anonymous T said...

Hi,

I like the issues you raise on your blog, and have similar political sentiments myself.

However, in the same way that I don't judge you for being American (re: American foreign policy; percieved ignorance of the general American public, etc.) - I don't like that you judge me, for example, as a Christian based on what a bunch of Americans did in lynching Afro Americans.

5:54 AM  
Anonymous RamZen said...

Creationists want people to believe in a superior being, just because we are here and not believe in a superior being creating the superior just because it is here. These arguments never have a sensible end. thats why they had to come up with faith to explain the inexplainable. I know that from the eve=evening darkness void i came a place of inactivity to this place of activity friction creates light sun son adam or was it atom. Ronald Lee Vaught web angelheartsolor.org

4:57 PM  
Anonymous kman said...

Liberals have done more to create hate than conservative cristians ever have. Every word out of their mouth is attached to a skin color or gender. They have consistantly preached hand outs creating a society of intitlement. Don't believe me? We have had forty years of liberlism and where has it gotten us? Half of our kids can't read because of liberal public school policy. Blacks consistantly vote liberal for hand outs never reaching their full potential because it's human nature to stand with your hand out again and again if your given something free and the government has involved itself in every aspect of our lives to the point we cant think for ourselves. How can you call yourselves liberal while turning your nose up at someone driving a pick up or having a different way of life that doesn't fit your anti capitalist, pro anthing goes except a gun toten, red neck, hayseed hick template???? Oh and did I mention you reek of narcism?

5:55 PM  

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