Friday, June 01, 2007

…Then The Party Came To A Crashing Halt

Let me state the obvious in terms that Republicans can relate to. The GOP is losing market share and they have a bad brand. With a large field of Republican wannabe Presidents all trying to claim the mantle of Reagan, yet Pat Buchanan is on television saying that Republicans in DC are driving Reagan Republicans “straight back to the Democratic Party,” I’d say the GOP is in trouble. Couldn’t happen to a nicer group of folks.

I’ve always given credit to the Bush administration for being politically astute, but as is usually the case, any credit extended to this incompetent group may turn out to be too much. Bush is left with an approval rating consisting solely of his base, yet he has decided to take on immigration reform in such a way as to increase the number of immigrant workers coming into the country at a time when jobs are becoming more and more scarce. The question that immediately comes to mind is why?

As far as I can tell, the main objective of this administration has been to increase profits of the biggest corporations and the wealth of the richest Americans. Apparently, creating a permanent under underclass that will provide a continuous stream of low-wage workers for industry that has come to rely on it to maximize their profits is worth pissing off the last 28% of Americans still propping up the Bush Presidency.

George W. Bush has used fear mongering as a preferred method of gaining support for what would otherwise be unpopular policies, and it has a been pretty successful tactic thus far. I find it amusing that he is now caught off guard by the venom with which his most gullible victims are reacting to his, in their mind, completely incomprehensible stance on immigration. These people are amongst the last Americans still supporting the continued occupation of Iraq because they have been tricked into believing that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11, and they have bought into the threats that “if we leave Iraq now, they will follow us home.” Now that Bush has stirred up their fears that “the others” are coming to blow up our cities, it’s kind of difficult to get them to swallow the idea that letting in more “others” from across the border is a good idea. Oops.

In a related story, The RNC has fired all of their telephone fundraisers and closed its phone center. The RNC says it’s because of outdated equipment, but the fired workers tell a different story, they say that fundraising has dropped off significantly and the Party faithful are in full revolt over the immigration bill and are refusing to give money. Again, couldn’t happen to a nicer group of folks, not the fundraisers in the call center but rather the fear-mongering, self interested and greedy Republicans that have shaped policy for their own political and financial gain, the good of the country be damned.

Republican voters are disillusioned and unhappy with the slate of candidates they currently have to choose from. Fred Thompson is hoping to slide into the race and inspire the base in a way the current field has been unable to do. He’s an actor, so he may be able to schmooze his way into the nomination of his Party, but in the end, Republican voters will be as disappointed with him as they have been with the rest. It’s only a matter of time before the vast majority of voters who have ever leaned Republican will realize that the candidates aren’t the problem. The GOP and what it stands for has simply become outdated. What this country needs most right now is optimism, hope, innovation and real ideas to get us moving in the right direction so we can rejoin, and hopefully lead, the world again and that sure as hell isn’t going to come from the status quo Party lead by a bunch of old white guys with 20th century mindsets.

The Republican Party is all smoke and mirrors. Mitt Romney cooked the books in Massachusetts in order to make it look as if he turned a deficit into a surplus, but that can appear to happen when you overestimate the deficit, shift money from one place to another, don’t contribute to the “rainy day fund” (as mandated by Massachusetts law) and defer payments until after you leave office. Rudy Giuliani made a strategic blunder by placing the emergency command center in the one place in NYC that was most likely to be attacked (and did), yet somehow managed to make his walking through the rubble of his city to get there, appear brave rather than stupid. John McCain, a man who not long ago reportedly considered switching Parties, has positioned himself as the most radical neo-con of them all. Fred Thompson is being billed as the Bible belt’s golden boy, but what kind of paragon of Christian morality marries a woman young enough to be his grandchild?

The American people are tired of smoke and mirrors, fantastical thinking and policies based on wishful thinking. We’re looking for representation, not a false prophet. We’ve been saddled with one of those for the last six and a half years. No more throwbacks, we’re moving on.

63 Comments:

Anonymous Newt 4 Pres said...

Liberal Girl, as usual, you make some good points and some that I don't quite understand, but it's always interesting, and I thank you for blogging.

You are right that the GOP is in trouble. It is difficult for conservatives such as myself to look at McCain and Giuliani as the leaders of what we thought was a conservative party. They all just feel so watered down. Here's hoping for Newt to throw his hat in...

The immigration stance by Bush is offensive, and I'm glad it is so not just to conservatives but liberals as well.

You're propping up a straw man to knock down by saying that many, I guess conservatives, were "tricked into believing that Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11". I know you know that isn't the case. We simply viewed it, right or wrong, as the next place to carry out the war on terror, and I understand that liberals do not share that view, to put it mildly.

I also find it interesting that you view it as a Bush threat that “if we leave Iraq now, they will follow us home.” If I remember correctly, this is one of the same arguments used by liberals (and very presciently, I might add) to not go into Iraq in the first place. Ironic how things circle around.

I hate to see the whole "old white guys" schtick pulled out. Seems like we could move beyond that in 2007. You're better than that, Liberal Girl.

I also don't see how marrying a woman (or man) young enough to be a grandchild is immoral. If it's legal and consensual, I just don't see the harm. If it were the conservative girl next door saying this, liberals would (correctly) view this as another attempt by conservatives to impose their morality on everyone else.

I also find it interesting that Republican ideas are "fantastical" yet Democrat ideas consist of "optimism, hope, and innovation". All in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

Wishing all of you a pleasant weekend!!

1:23 PM  
Blogger The (liberal)Girl Next Door said...

Newt4Prez--I'm sure that you are aware that in 2003, 70% of Americans polled thought Saddam Hussein was “personally involved in 9/11” although by 2006 that number was down to 43%. Still sad, but better I suppose. This false link was repeatedly pushed by the Bush administration starting in 2001 and they continue to do it to this day. What else do you call that but duped?

Those of us who thought it was a bad idea to go into Iraq didn’t think that because we were afraid they would “follow us home.” That is ridiculous. First and foremost, invading Iraq was unprovoked and unnecessary. We had no business going in and blowing their country apart, no matter how awful their President was. Liberals did warn, as did the CIA, career State Department officials and Generals, that preemptively invading Iraq would result in blowback and that removing Saddam Hussein would likely unleash sectarian violence that could spread to the broader Middle East. All of that has happened but George W’s “fight them there so we don’t have to fight them here” is a bunch of crap. His “flypaper” theory has as much merit as the rest of the wild theories he believed in like “we’ll be greeted as liberators” and “the oil will pay for the war” and “the war might last 6 days, 6 weeks, but certainly no 6 months”. How’s all that workin’ out so far?

And for the record, I don’t have a problem with the age difference between Fred Thompson and his wife and I in no way question his morality for his choice. My point is that I suspect many conservative “values voters” might.

As for the old white guy reference, I use that for several reasons. 1) It’s true. 2) Old White Guys hold most positions of power despite the fact that we have an increasingly diverse population and I think it’s time that our representation better reflected the actual make-up of the country. 3) Because sometimes I like to give back to all of the men who have attacked women for being women, instead of attacking their ideas. I can turn on my television and see it happen on every single news channel within the first two minutes and I find it so frustrating that sometimes, I just have to throw it back the other way. Childish, I know.

Wishing you a lovely weekend as well Newt4Prez and I really have enjoyed your comments and your perspective. Thanks.

4:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I enjoyed both your comments: You Liberalgirl because you had me laughing up a storm: so true, but so funnily put. You: new4pres because your refreshing good manners and willingness to engage in intelligent discourse and respectful disagreement with somebody who does not share your views. As I'm sure you are aware, this is so rare on political blogs. Thanks for one of the most refreshing blog reads I've had in a long time.

7:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Stefan is a coward.

Stefan can’t handle people telling the truth on his blog.

Goldy lets people as foolish as MTK post on his blog, but you won’t let anyone that disagrees you prove you are wrong.

Poooooooooor Stefan. Heza gotta blawwwwwwwwg, and he has to delete comments so only the retards comments remain.

Poooooooooor Stefan.

Stefan, I challenge you to a debate. Any time anywhere. Heck you can bring Karl Rove if you want. I will trash you with the truth so badly you will go crying home to your mommie, if she would take your hypocrite ass back……

How bout it Stefan.

Let’s make it public. You talk about “conservative” issues, and I will talk about criminal behavior. Sound fair?

Coward.

You Fuc*ing coward.

I never once posted anything on your stupid blog that I couldn’t back up with links. Delete my posts will you? It only means I am right, and you can’t defend your positions. Period. I win. Hands down.

You lose Stefan.

You COWARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pussie!!!!!!

8:34 PM  
Blogger The (liberal)Girl Next Door said...

Anonymous II--As much as I might agree with your sentiments, dude...you've got the wrong blog!

For those of you who don't read local Seattle Republican apologist blogs, there is a right-wing crank named Stefan that runs a blog here. He sometimes links to me and it seems someone got confused. Just thought I'd give some context on what appears to be a random rant.

Of course it could be that anonymous II is using irony to further make the point put forward by the anonymous commenter before him/her, that what passes for political discourse on some blogs, can best be described as wanting. Bravo!

9:20 PM  
Anonymous Dale h said...

Newt4 Says:

"You are right that the GOP is in trouble. It is difficult for conservatives such as myself to look at McCain and Giuliani as the leaders of what we thought was a conservative party. They all just feel so watered down. Here's hoping for Newt to throw his hat in..."

Please decribe that 'hat'. Aluminum foil or propeller on top? Which do you prefer to wear?

Here's hoping that you Repugs get the deck chairs on the Titanic properly rearranged.
I know, I know. comparing the 'performance' of Dubya and his Party to the Titanic is
very unfair...........to the Titanic. Well, at least I'm keeping the water metaphor intact.

As for the 'undiluted' Newt. I believe this is part of what LGN was driving at with her
'fantastical' reference. Just how hard do you have to work to suppress whatever critical thinking skills and powers of analysis you possess and to think that such a grievously flawed individual as Newt is a worthy heir to promote whatever you define Reaganism as?

Furthermore what level of abysmal governance do we have to arrive at for you to
realize that the Republican Party is simply not equipped to clean up the mess they've
made? Nor are they entitled to expect the non fantastical to give them the benefit of the
doubt, let alone another Presidential term.

No, Newt4, you just cannot make-up shit more outrageous than the real thing when it comes to bleatings from members AND leaders of the Republican Party. What I'm waiting to learn is whether Newt is willing to raise his hand to acknowledge disbelief in the theory of evolution. Can you explain to me just how much your head hurts when you try to reconcile your support for the Repug party with the abundance of evidence that there's no one left but the benighted folk standing in
line to enter the Creation Museum in Petersburg, Kentucky?!

Here's another example of clear Republican 'thinking' from the chairman of the Arkansas Republican Party and the owner of a water treatment
company no less. Obviously this guy drinks pure, untreated Republican Kool-aid!


http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Arkansas_GOP_head_We_need_more_0603.html

Arkansas GOP head: We need more 'attacks on American soil' so people appreciate Bush
06/03/2007 @ 5:46 pm
Filed by Josh Catone


In his first interview as the chairman of the Arkansas Republican Party, Dennis Milligan told a reporter that America needs to be attacked by terrorists so that people will appreciate the work that President Bush has done to protect the country.


"At the end of the day, I believe fully the president is doing the right thing, and I think all we need is some attacks on American soil like we had on [Sept. 11, 2001]," Milligan said to the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, "and the naysayers will come around very quickly to appreciate not only the commitment for President Bush, but the sacrifice that has been made by men and women to protect this country."

Milligan, who was elected as the new chair of the Arkansas Republican Party just two weeks ago, also told the newspaper that he is "150 percent" behind Bush in the war in Iraq.

In his acceptance speech on May 19th, Milligan told his fellow Republicans that it was "time for a rediscovery of our values and our common sense."

The owner of a water treatment company, Milligan was a relative unknown in Arkansas politics until being elected the party chairman. He had previously served as the party's treasurer and the Saline County Republican chair.

8:31 AM  
Anonymous david said...

Old White Guys? Now, I'm not one to push some OogaBooga theory of the media, but don't you see mostly Old White Guys pushing the rightwing agenda? Name the youngster running for the GOP presidential nomination? the woman? the person of color?

How many neo-con commentators on TV look like they've been strapped to their chair, had false teeth glued to their gums, and had their hair fussed with for half-an-hour? (No wonder Chris Matthews is jealous of John Edwards.)

I'm sorry, but the GOP is on life support. It's a party that's arrived in the 21st century DOA. It's reaching back to the past and trying to conjure up some phoney America that exists only in B&W TV. It's time to cut and run from this mummified party and embrace something new.

I personally don't understand the fuss about immigration. America stole Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California from the Mexicans, it's only fair if they take it back peacefully. Besides, you know how to really stop illegal immigration, don't you? STOP making their home countries hellholes and forcing people from the land and overthrowing their governments and replacing them with tyrannical puppets.

6:59 PM  
Anonymous kindlingman said...

"GOP on life support"?

That is an exaggeration resembling Malkin's and O'Reilly's comments about democrat cut and runners.

If you have never seen a re-building effort through a Strict Father morality, then pay attention to the Republican Party now. The self-disciplined patriarch will emerge, give it a little more time. Fred Thompson has that image right now in many Republican minds.

I don't think the Repubs will embrace any candidate with more than two wives, but they may accept one whose second wife is established with a few decades of marriage (like Nancy Reagan was).

7:48 PM  
Anonymous Dale H. said...

David said:

"I personally don't understand the fuss about immigration. America stole Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California from the Mexicans, it's only fair if they take it back peacefully. Besides, you know how to really stop illegal immigration, don't you? STOP making their home countries hellholes and forcing people from the land and overthrowing their governments and replacing them with tyrannical puppets."

Good to see you sporting your 'self-righteous' bonnet, again. It's so becoming on you!

We'll look forward to the peaceful ceding of the former Mexican territories shortly after the return of the Canadian provinces to the Aboriginals.

8:05 PM  
Anonymous david said...

How sweet, dale h! You seem to be projecting onto Canada America's own genocide.

Indeed, Land Claims are the name of the game up here. And the First Nations of Canada have gotten a better deal than those south of the 49th.

But what are you, dale h? A liberal or a conservative? A progressive or a traditionalist? I've quarreled with you before over the fact that you seem in love with rightwing commentators and neo-con spin. It just makes you look odd.

I take it you oppose the new immigration bill. Why? I suppose only WASPs can illegally migrate into new places and take over, is that it? But Hispanics ought to know their place, eh?

The GOP is a dead party because it is OLD WHITE and MALE. It's also Christian, but it seems to take both Catholics and Protestants so long as they're fundamentalists. (I've met the charismatic Catholics and they really sound like Soutern Baptists with Saints.)

I'm sorry, dale h, you disappoint me. You're an apologist for the USA and, like a cop, you close rank when anyone criticizes the Land of the Free (TM). It makes it so easy for the fascists to lead you around by the nose: just wave that old stars and stripes and you'll swallow any BS.

9:22 AM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

david said:

"I'm sorry, dale h, you disappoint me. You're an apologist for the USA and, like a cop, you close rank when anyone criticizes the Land of the Free (TM). It makes it so easy for the fascists to lead you around by the nose: just wave that old stars and stripes and you'll swallow any BS."



Why you haven't figured out by now that I care not a whit about your 'dissapointment' in me, because I don't fit your preconceptions about how I SHOULD think or what I should read, is a continuing source of bemusement to me.

I 'close ranks' when an ill-informed, self-righteous fool like yourself takes cheap shots
like this: "Besides, you know how to really stop illegal immigration, don't you? STOP making their home countries hellholes and forcing people from the land and overthrowing their governments and replacing them with tyrannical puppets."

If, as clearly implied, you're talking about Mexico, then you ARE both patronizing and uninformed. Or, are you stating that the Mexican people are incapable of self-governance and self-determination?

"But what are you, dale h? A liberal or a conservative? A progressive or a traditionalist? I've quarreled with you before over the fact that you seem in love with rightwing commentators and neo-con spin. It just makes you look odd."

Appear odd to to a rigid, self-righteous ideologue like yourself who is clearly uncomfortable, if not more than a little frightened, by nuance, shades of gray and anyone who doesn't read only
your list of 'approved' sources.

"I take it you oppose the new immigration bill. Why? I suppose only WASPs can illegally migrate into new places and take over, is that it? But Hispanics ought to know their place, eh?"

One of the hallmarks of the pseudo-intellectual is their affintiy and weakness for straw man arguments and their predisposition to argue with themselves. Rummy would be proud of you!

Anyhow, No, No, No and No!

11:14 AM  
Blogger Cosmic Messenger said...

Both corporate parties in America need to WAKE UP and accept that their centrist politics of the past 25 years have put LADY LIBERTY on LIFE SUPPORT.

The influence of business money has replaced reverence for Constitutional democracy and misled voters into believing unregulated capitalism means freedom.

As Mollie points out, the GOP is losing market share. In my opinion, it's because voters are rejecting Reagan's philosophy as hypocritical. They see Bush has made a mockery of capitalism's potential and violated their moral beliefs which turns America into a fascist state to achieve world dominance.

The GOP has nothing new to offer. Fred Thompson's potential candidacy typifies how they want to resurrect the same old stale themes of tough on law and order, fiscal responsibility and global supremacy through a dominant military.

America doesn't want another false Hollywood prophet trying to convince its citizens to give the oligarchy a second chance. This country needs leadership which returns it to the Constitutional guarantee of freedom for all rather than just corporate citizens.

If neither the Democrats or Republicans have the will to do this then democracy will be lost forever and anarchy will prevail.

Peace,
Cosmic

4:20 PM  
Anonymous kindlingman said...

After the Republican debate tonight what will progressives do?
Every Republican said they would not change the military policy towards gays. Every Republican said they believe in global warming. Every Republican said they support healthcare for all Americans.

All Republicans are becoming progressives now...How nice...

9:01 PM  
Blogger Cosmic Messenger said...

Talk is cheap and so is your allusion that Progressives are the definitive voice of the Democratic Party, Kindlingman.

Republicans were embracing the ideas of the Centrist Corporate Party of America tonight. It's made up of business whores from both major national parties formally known as the Democrats and Repugs.

Corporations need gays to fight their war. Corporations acknowledge global warming is a reality but don't want mandatory regulation of their behavior to correct it. And finally corporations believe all Americans should have health care as long as its achieved through the free market exploitation of the people.

What's progressive about that ?

Peace,
Cosmic

10:36 PM  
Anonymous kindlingman said...

I am in a sour mood tonight.
There is a problem in America when we stereotype all corporations as bad, all Republicans as bad, and all Democrats as bad.
Hooey. You might as well say that the neighborhood you live in is bad and your friends and family are bad. They are Republicans, Democrats, and work for corporations.
It is always "those guys" who are the problem, isn't it? "Those guys" who prevent the world from being perfect? Hooey.
"If only the world was the way I imagine it should be, everyone would be better off." Hooey.

Stop looking for dark linings in silver clouds. Republican leaders publicly acknowledge tenets of the progressive movement and you are bitter?
Sorry, you lost me on that.
The world is moving towards a liberal society and there is much to be done yet. A public acknowledgement by Republican leaders that refutes the diatribe of Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Malkin, Beck and Savage etc is to be enjoyed and savored.
Please do so.

7:53 PM  
Anonymous david said...

Dale H, perhaps you'd prefer the cheap shots coming from Mother Jones. James Ridgeway wrote MIA from the Immigration Debate: Creating economic opportunities in Mexico.

And I am not uninformed or patronizing about US policy in Mexico and the rest of Latin America. You seem unaware of the Republican Party's involvement in rigging the last Mexican election. Or the attempts to overthrow Chavez and the continuing illegal embargo on Cuba.

Now, you really like to think you're the cool intellectual, but what exactly were "No, no, no and no" answers to? Nuanced??? I think not. You have no grey shades. You are a typical Yankee carpetbagger seeking justification for your imperial escapades.

Of course you care a "whit". That's why you keep responding. And what amazes me is the company you keep. You mock me for dissing your sources, but, if you sleep with dogs, you get up with fleas.

Now, as to what Kindlingman said about the GOP not being of life support, I disagree. The present day GOP is a bizarre fusion of the Christian Right, Wall Street, fascist rednecks, and small 'c' conservatives. These people do not necessarily have much in common and it would be very easy for the various parts to fly apart. It happened here to the Conservatives in 1993 when the party broke into three factions. They have only recently merged, and even that is shakey.

Bush/Cheney have revealed that they are hypocrites: crooks & liars. And that's breaking up the coalition. And the War in Iraq is forcing others to decide things based on their religious values. I don't see any hope in the current crop of GOP candidates. Not even Fred Thompson.

8:38 AM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

david said...

"Dale H, perhaps you'd prefer the cheap shots coming from Mother Jones. James Ridgeway wrote MIA from the Immigration Debate: Creating economic opportunities in Mexico.

And I am not uninformed or patronizing about US policy in Mexico and the rest of Latin America. You seem unaware of the Republican Party's involvement in rigging the last Mexican election. Or the attempts to overthrow Chavez and the continuing illegal embargo on Cuba."

david:

You ascribe helplessness to the Mexicans and a competence to the Bush Admin that never was and never will be.

Now, you really like to think you're the cool intellectual, but what exactly were "No, no, no and no" answers to? Nuanced??? I think not. "

Here is your Rumsfeldian straw man rant with my answers placed where even an obtuse, ADD afflicted clown like yourself can pick them up
So I had an extra 'NO' in there...change it to a 'YES":

I take it you oppose the new immigration bill.(NO) Why? I suppose only WASPs can illegally migrate into new places and take over, is that it?(NO) But Hispanics ought to know their place, eh? (NO)........However, pseudo-intellectual, moralizing, condescending, patronizing Canucks? YES!


"You have no grey shades."

I guess it's those rigid ideologue tints in your mental eyewear that makes those who disagree with you seem 'odd' or monochromatic.

"You are a typical Yankee carpetbagger seeking justification for your imperial escapades."

Yeah, I get that a lot!

Of course you care a "whit". That's why you keep responding. And what amazes me is the company you keep. You mock me for dissing your sources, but, if you sleep with dogs, you get up with fleas."

NO, I don't. I regard your pathetic 'disappointment' with me as a very minor badge of honor. I mock you for all the aforementinioned reasons and because you regard your 'dogs' as the only flealess ones, despite the fact that you've never persuasively refuted the substance of a single source I've ever cited.

10:46 AM  
Blogger Cosmic Messenger said...

It's you that's stereotyped Democrats with the '50's conservative adage substituting Progressive for liberal, Kindlingman.

Your refrain just reinforces my assertion Republicans have no new ideas (ex. Thompson Candidacy) and would prefer to regress back to the nostaligic days of McCarthy, bashing all who oppose their militarism as anti-capitalist.

Peace,
Cosmic

11:19 AM  
Anonymous david said...

Well, you don't think Mexicans are helpless, Dale H?? Not with a pro-Bush government, a corrupt police force, an intimidated press where journalists who criticize the government are murdered, where elections are rigged, and peasants & native people are driven from the land so American agri-business can grow corn for ethanol instead of food.

I'm happy to hear you're behind the immigration bill. I'm still disappointed you didn't read James Ridgeway. I'm sorry you didn't think I've refuted your posts in the past. I thought I had. And questioning the legitimacy of an author is a valid criticism, you know. And when your posts are mere opinion or statements from a biased group or person, it really doesn't take much to show that this is not the One True Viewpoint.

2:53 PM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

david said:

"I'm happy to hear you're behind the immigration bill. I'm still disappointed you didn't read James Ridgeway. I'm sorry you didn't think I've refuted your posts in the past. I thought I had. And questioning the legitimacy of an author is a valid criticism, you know. And when your posts are mere opinion or statements from a biased group or person, it really doesn't take much to show that this is not the One True Viewpoint.

I did read him. I've never disputed that there were problems on BOTH sides of the border. It's simply your relentless insistence that America is the sole source of Mexico's problems that's as tiresome as it is fallacious.

I consider the validity of an argument to be the more honest intellectual approach, which is why I can 'expose' myself to authors from the Right with out fear of 'taint' or corruption. Of course only you are qualified to judge what and who are acceptable to read.

You are apparently unique in your freedom from bias, but highly suspect because you recoil from reading opposing views mostly because of 'suspect' authorship.

You dismiss ad hominem, which leaves many of your views unchallenged by reasonable arguments from the Right as well as by your self-inflicted
intellectual flaccidity.

As for the "One True Viewpoint" that you attribute to me, how do you reconcile your author-centric approach to texts with your supposed openeness to other viewpoints?

I used to question your physical courage both for your willingness to write things you would never say to an American's face and for your unwillingness to defend the basic values that allow you to
breathe freely, let alone hurl your witless invective in your posts. I was right about that.

Let's up the ante with the equally correct charge that you are the embodiment of an 'intellectual Taliban', sure of your rightness and equally sure and intolerant of the supposed erroroneous thinking of everyone who differs with you.

4:45 PM  
Anonymous david said...

Ah, Dale H, always a pleasure to read you. (And I'm not sure why you think I don't read the links you provide. I'm sure I've said I did and gone further and read articles posted above and below. That's why I feel hostile to some supposedly reasonable arguments.)

I'm old enough to know that people often share interests, but it's the nuance or phrasing that's different. The Right has suckered the public one too many times with promises to fix education or unemployment or whatever. And then they just make things worse.

Take the war in Iraq and the possible war in Iran. The Right is not interested in advancing women's rights or establishing democracy or human rights. These issues are trial balloons sent up to see what needs to be said to make independents and moderates and swing votes contemplate agreeing to do the unthinkable.

America kills innocent civilians. It arrests and confines civilians arbitrarily. It tortures and denies habeas corpus. It meddles in foreign elections in a way that would see criminal charges laid if a foreign national tried to do in the USA. And then America has the gall to say it's the beacon of liberty and the leader of the Free World. Fut!

I think you'll find, Dale H, that I did not say that America was the "sole" source of Mexico's problems. It seems you are not above using strawman arguments yourself. (And I've been on the receiving end of so many of your ad hominem attacks that I don't see how you can lecture me.)

The arrogance of America --and most of the G8-- comes from failing to embrace Noblesse Oblige. (BTW, I can recommend a sweet British movie starring Bill Nighy called "The Girl in the Cafe".) Imperialism has always embraced trickle down economics --and that is never good for the developing world.

Now, Dale H, I'm sure you know where the phrase Banana Republic comes from. It's difficult for America to escape responsiblity for what it's done to Latin America. How many times have the US Marines invaded? How many coups were plotted in DC? Remember Reagan's little war with the Catholic Church in Central America? It's hard to respect a nation that condones the killing of nuns.

Of course, it's all in the narrative-- how you tell the story. Even now the neo-cons and certain turncoat progressives are telling themselves the Iraq War was Just --it was simply badly managed. Mistakes were made. The New Machiavellians in search of a reasonable argument to do unspeakable evil in the name Laissez-faire Capitalism.

6:29 PM  
Anonymous Dale H. said...

david said:

"Now, Dale H, I'm sure you know where the phrase Banana Republic comes from. It's difficult for America to escape responsiblity for what it's done to Latin America. How many times have the US Marines invaded? How many coups were plotted in DC? Remember Reagan's little war with the Catholic Church in Central America? It's hard to respect a nation that condones the killing of nuns."

Just how bat shit crazy stupid do you have to be to infer that "a nation' condoned the killing of nuns?
As I've said, your respect is not something I court. And, based upon the "nuns comment", and your
other sweeping condemnations of the U.S., spare yourself the apparent heavy lifting required for you
to respect us.


"Of course, it's all in the narrative-- how you tell the story."

Indeed it is. One sided 'narration' is always no more than half the story. Every nations' History is a mix of good and bad, except apparently ours which is and has always been the scourge of mankind.

"The Right has suckered the public one too many times with promises to fix education or unemployment or whatever. And then they just make things worse."

I've never argued otherwise. Just how big a barn full of straw do you live near?

"America kills innocent civilians. It arrests and confines civilians arbitrarily. It tortures and denies habeas corpus. It meddles in foreign elections in a way that would see criminal charges laid if a foreign national tried to do in the USA. And then America has the gall to say it's the beacon of liberty and the leader of the Free World. Fut!

Sometimes our Government does those things, to our everlasting shame. Your emphasis portrays more of your polemical, contemptuous viewpoint/prism than can be concealed by the thin veneer of your pseudo-intellectual, knee-jerk liberalism. F.U.TOO!

"The arrogance of America --and most of the G8-- comes from failing to embrace Noblesse Oblige. (BTW, I can recommend a sweet British movie starring Bill Nighy called "The Girl in the Cafe".) Imperialism has always embraced trickle down economics --and that is never good for the developing world.'

Good movie. Point not well taken. But then I'm just "a typical Yankee carpetbagger seeking justification for my imperial escapades."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g8/story/0,13365,1503531,00.html

Naomi Klein
Friday June 10, 2005
The Guardian


Gordon Brown has a new idea about how to "make poverty history" in time for the G8 summit. With Washington so far refusing to double its aid to Africa by 2015, the chancellor is appealing to the "richer oil-producing states" of the Middle East to fill the funding gap. "Oil wealth urged to save Africa," reads the headline in the Observer.
Here is a better idea: instead of Saudi Arabia's oil wealth being used to "save Africa", how about if Africa's oil wealth was used to save Africa - along with its gas, diamond, gold, platinum, chromium, ferroalloy and coal wealth?


And lastly, Dennis Miller....back when he was funny, before 911 scared him shitless/brainless.

What's Right with America
You know, normally on my HBO show I come out here week after week and p*** on everything like a drunk yard cat. You know that. That's my job. I've always felt I'm paid to find things that are wrong and then do my best to throw the switch on the perimeter floods and light it up. Tonight we're suppose to talk about what's right with America. Now I know you've got to burrow pretty deep to unearth any underlying confidence in a nation that's sapped of its vigor, strafed by violence, and pummeled senseless by the debasement of every institution from the Armed Services to Baseball. That being said, Are we gonna have some fun tonight?! Yeah, all right. That was rhetorical. Now I don't want to get off on a rant here, but you know, there's a lot right right with America! Nowadays, you just have to look a little harder for it. Sure, we're sick of paying for illegal immigrant kids to go to school and we're going to stop. But only a country that did it for a while can stop doing it. See? People don't ever consider that.
And okay, we nearly exterminated the Native Americans. Nobody tries to hide that anymore. But we did change our textbooks so the facts came out. I mean, who else does that? Only America. And as if admitting the truth wasn't enough, we don't even tax their casinos. And us - with a 4-trillion-debt! I'm saying not taxing billions in Indian bingo loot is magnanimous and should be in the "What's Right with America" column!

How's about this - in America we let people in prison read, study law, even work out so they can get themselves out of jail in much better mental and physical shape to resume their lives of crime. A lot of countries treat their criminals like animals, like sub-humans, as if they'd done something wrong! Not America. Not this great country.

I'm not a complete ethno-centrist. I went over to France earlier this year for a couple of months, to see if I might live there. And while I enjoyed my time in Paris, I should tell you that the French hate our guts. I cannot believe they actually gave us the Statue of Liberty. They must've been throwing it out anyway. Because these people detest us. They look at us and we are one, big, collective Jethro bearing down on them, rope belt and all. And you know something? In all fairness, we might be hicks, but at least we're hicks who tend to our armpits more frequently than once every time Comet Kohoutek is in the solar system. These people avoid showers like a blonde at the Bates Motel. They had to invent perfume. It wasn't an augmentation, it was a defense mechanism. Trust me, when Louis the XIV guillotined you, he was doing you a big favor separating your olfactory senses from your brainstem. "Yeah, Claude, paint the water lilies a little later. Right now I need you to pick up that loofa and storm the pit Bastille, all right?" Thank you, Pepe LePeux. I had a cabdriver over there, smelled like a man eating Gorganzola cheese while getting a permanent inside the septic tank of a slaughterhouse. I said, "Hey, pal. There's an extra five in it for ya if you run over a f***ing skunk." So, there'd another reason why this country's great. We smell better than most.

Another reason we're great is because we create things here,things of unique beauty, things that unconsciously interweave the American attributes of ingenuity, optimism, gluttony, and narrow-mindedness. Things like: "All You Can Eat" Restaurants ... The Clapper ... Street-legal, semiautomatic grenade weapons that even the Tontons Macoute didn't have ... The Temporary Insanity Plea ... Cutting-edge CD-ROM technology used for porno ... deep-fried cheese ... bans on toy guns ... rain ponchos for dogs ... Orange Julius ... Orange County ... beer can hats ... plea bargaining ... being able to plug your parents with bullets and getting acquitted ... indeed we're even free over here to subscribe to 500 channels of cable only to find out that that piece of s***, William Katt's superhero show, is on 498 of them ... You know ... As a matter of fact, you want to know what's right with America more than anything? Our right to speak out about everything that's wrong with it. And we're all free to vent at will-at least for the next couple of days till Gingrich takes over and straps the rat cage on our collective face.

You know ... this really is a great country. Remind yourself of it once in a while. Take the family on Route 66, shop at the Galleria, buy a gun, have your breasts enlarged, have your penis lengthened, sue your neighbor, eat three Big Macs, drive 120 and pay the ticket, visit the White House - or better yet, jump the fence and go meet the Prez in person. He likes that. He really really likes that. It's America, g**damn it!!

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Miller, Dennis. The Rants. NY: Doubleday. 1996

7:40 AM  
Anonymous david said...

Well, Dale H, I wouldn't quote Dennis Miller. He's never been funny. And the rant you posted is full of hate and ethnic stereotyping. Of course, I suspect a Mange Cake like you would find it funny.

Massive and Systemic Violations of Human Rights describes America today. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying your idea that this is exceptionalism. This is the American Way ever since Truman. And it sucks.

And I think you're naive to think America hasn't embraced terrorism as a tool to oppress Latin America. Try reading Reagan was behind one of the most intensive campaigns of mass murder in recent history.

Have you ever wondered why the Christian Right froths at the mouth and rants whenever Nobel prize winner Rigoberta Menchu makes the news? There's your real clash of civilizations. WASP capitalism doing to the people of Latin America what it did to the First Nations in the USA during the 19th century.

Again, Dale H, you might think it is great that Americans take long showers, but you can't wash the blood from your hands. And no, my friend, it's not a strawman argument to say that America does these evil things again and again. Your argument that it happens only once in a blue moon and to everyone's regret is so bogus.

You think I'm batshit crazy? Well, heck, just what are you doing pretending it didn't happen? Why are you covering up for these goons? You are an enabler! Face it.

9:14 AM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

david said...

"Well, Dale H, I wouldn't quote Dennis Miller. He's never been funny. And the rant you posted is full of hate and ethnic stereotyping. Of course, I suspect a Mange Cake like you would find it funny."

He WAS funny and I don't take you as the measure of what is funny any more than I take your hysterical tirades against the U.S. worth a grain.

"Massive and Systemic Violations of Human Rights describes America today. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying your idea that this is exceptionalism. This is the American Way ever since Truman. And it sucks."

What sucks is your monomaniacal obsessiveness with what is wrong with America..

Get a life, cupcake.

"And I think you're naive to think America hasn't embraced terrorism as a tool to oppress Latin America. Try reading Reagan was behind one of the most intensive campaigns of mass murder in recent history."

Try qualifying your charges as to what AMERICA allegedly "embraces", jerk.

"Have you ever wondered why the Christian Right froths at the mouth and rants whenever Nobel prize winner Rigoberta Menchu makes the news? There's your real clash of civilizations. WASP capitalism doing to the people of Latin America what it did to the First Nations in the USA during the 19th century."

Ah, no. I just take that as their normal demeanor. Kinda like yours during your polemical, one note rants on the evils of America.

"Again, Dale H, you might think it is great that Americans take long showers, but you can't wash the blood from your hands. And no, my friend, it's not a straw argument to say that America does these evil things again and again. Your argument that it happens only once in a blue moon and to every-one's regret is so bogus."

No blood on MY hands, nitwit.

And that goes to the heart of why I've often accused you of gutlessness. You hide behind the anonymity of the Internet to write things you really don't have the stones to say to another's face. Now don't wet your pants. NOT a threat, just a commonsensical observation.

And what part of this didn't you understand?

Sometimes our Government does those things, to our everlasting shame. Your emphasis portrays more of your polemical, contemptuous viewpoint/prism than can be concealed by the thin veneer of your pseudo-intellectual, knee-jerk liberalism. F.U.TOO!

Sometimes = 'blue moon'?

"and to everyone's regret is so bogus."

You of course can read the mind of every American and ascertain levels of complicity and regret.

"You think I'm batshit crazy? Well, heck, just what are you doing pretending it didn't happen? Why are you covering up for these goons? You are an enabler! Face it. "

Yes, I do think that you're bat shit crazy, throw in obsessive, hysterical and gutless too. Face this. You are a sloppy thinker and a careless writer who never met a sweeping generalization or a straw man argument that you didn't like.

10:38 AM  
Anonymous david said...

Tsk, tsk! Dale H, hiding behind the corporate veil of America.

Pastor Martin Niemoeller:
First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left
to speak up for me.

12:22 PM  
Blogger Cosmic Messenger said...

As usual, responses to your columns have deteriorated into a spitting contest between dale h and David which is why I rarily post here, Mollie.

It's a shame they want to switch the topic to ideas they're comfortable arguing about rather than discuss the premises you present to your readers.

I appreciate your perspectives and the effort you put into researching them but the egos of these two only detracts from the quality of your work.

Since this is an open forum, I'll just return to read your next Column.

Peace,
Cosmic

12:25 PM  
Anonymous david said...

Okay. I'll ignore Dale H from now on. Personally I find his patriotic progressiveness --or is it progressive patriotism?-- rather tiresome.

Of course, the danger to the GOP is that sincere Christians are waking up to the crookedness of the Republican leadership. And the serious business types are starting to worry about the neo-con nutbars who seem to be fiscally irresponsible. And the traditionalists are depressed at the undermining of the US Constitution.

In other words, the GOP is breaking up. And it'll be very hard to put back together.

However, I don't see things as being much better with the Democrats. I like Barack Obama and John Edwards, but Hillary Clinton, I fear, is too corporate. (And I'm judging people here by things they've said outside of the election cycle.)

I rather like the writing of Chalmers Johnson. I've just read Can we end the American Empire before it ends us? and 737 US Military Bases = Global Empire. Food for thought.

5:57 PM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

"Tsk, tsk! Dale H, hiding behind the corporate veil of America."

Nonsensical. Guess the comment about using the anonymity of the Internet to cast insults about Americans didn't cause you to take stock of your weasel like behavior.

".........Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me."

Beautiful! Likening present day America to Nazi Germany is what I've come to expect from an hysteric. Your implied comparison is unfounded based upon any sensible assessment of the political culture of the two countries. And excuse me while I stop for a healthy laugh. OK, that felt good.

Now, where exactly do YOU step in and stand up for anyone or anything? Just asking because, you know, you've never expressed a willingness to
defend a single one of the common values of either your Country or Mine. I understand about mine since we've never lived up to a single Article
or Amendment in our Constitution...EVER. I realize it makes you FEEL heroic reading about people more noble or heroic than yourself. But who are you kidding?

"Personally I find his patriotic progressiveness --or is it progressive patriotism?-- rather tiresome."

More tiresome than your uncontrollable knee jerk bashing of everything to due with America? I'm surprised there's not a medication for R.K.S and that you're not in the TV ad. I realize that rigid ideologues like yourself are easily disturbed by ambiguity and easily frustrated with resistance to pigeon holing, but why don't you just keep your confusion to yourself?

6:58 PM  
Anonymous david said...

Ah, Dale H: the Good Germ- er, American.

So, you're only hearing the Bush America = Nazi Germany Redux from me, eh? I don't think so.

I know you're awfully proud of America, but the center of civilization prior to 1933 was Britain & Germany. Those two countries are where one found the best & brightest in science, technology, art, music, literature, health care, and education.

I mention that because the true horror of Hitler's Nazi movement is that it can take the most civilized nation and turn it to barbaric ruin. And it can happen in America too.

Consider Mitt Romney. At the last debate he claimed Saddam had refused to let the UN weapons inspectors in and so had to be bombed. This kind of Big Lie is what passes for discourse in America today. Hillary Clinton claimed we were safer today than we were on 9/11 --despite all evidence to the contrary.

You know, sometimes it is better to be a rigid ideologue rather than a spineless, wishywashy amnesiac. Bush sometimes speaks the truth, but I don't trust him for doing so. And I usually am very nervous about his motives when he does so. Still, it's the complacent "good" Americans who enable the Empire builders and the wannabe Nazis of the New World Order.

Oh, and to help you see the light, try reading Siege Heil: The Bush-Rove-Schwarzenegger Nazi Nexus. It should be common knowledge that the neo-cons are all admirers of Hitler & totalitarianism. I guess you were in the Little Boy's Room when that was discussed.

7:57 AM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

david said:

"Ah, Dale H: the Good Germ- er, American."

"So, you're only hearing the Bush America = Nazi Germany Redux from me, eh? I don't think so."


Gee, why would I hear ONLY that when a quote associated with, and only with, Nazi Germany was ALL that your post
consisted of?

"Oh, and to help you see the light, try reading Siege Heil: The Bush-Rove-Schwarzenegger Nazi Nexus. It should be common knowledge that the neo-cons are all admirers of Hitler & totalitarianism. I guess you were in the Little Boy's Room when that was discussed."

Together with the Niemoeller quote, which is quintessentially associated with the inactions of many In NAZI Freakin' Germany, and your fatuous morally imbecilic, Good German imputation, your above quotes are the petard upon which you've hoisted your lame, frightened and hysterical ass.

"neo-cons are all admirers of Hitler & totalitarianism.' = America is on the way to " Nazi Germany Redux".

And what room were you in when logical fallacies were being discussed?

"I know you're awfully proud of America, but the center of civilization prior to 1933 was Britain & Germany. Those two countries are where one found the best & brightest in science, technology, art, music, literature, health care, and education."

Now isn't it amazing how those two Western nations attained such pre-eminence notwithstanding their rapacious imperialism, colonialism and mistreatment of native peoples? It's hard to respect one who relentlessly trashes Western Civilization, except when praising it seemingly and superficially helps support a point.

Lay aside pride and consider for a moment how that rigid ideological stance, that you wrongly consider to be a measure of the health of your spine, has dulled whatever poor critical skills you possess and turned you into an ahistorical nitwit. First of all, I'm not exactly sure of the 'count' on the numbers of the "best and brightest" in the fields that you cite. However even a cursory glance at the levels of attainment in those fields would confirm that the USA was hardly dormant if not dominant. Think not? Turn off your lights, throw out your phone and throw out whatever freedoms and human rights protections you garnered from the longest living written Constitution in the world. And, oh yeah, forget about using your enviable National health Care Plan to get an MRI to confirm your invertebrate status.

For that matter, were the 20's and early 30's barren of American achievements in entertainment, literature, architecture, engineering, science and invention? A fair reading of history would say no. Then again fair is to David as fish is to bicycle

I'm not even a little bit sorry that the USA, in its roughly 150 years of existence by circa 1933, didn't contribute as much to the worlds' art, music, & literature to make your 'cut' for pre-eminence. How have we done since then? Check the list of Nobel laureates in all fields and get back to me. And think about whether you're using a Microsoft or an Apple operating system, and where the intellectual property comes from, as you post your lame reply.

Now to your larger point. Just how much protection did that pre-eminence provide against the rise of a totalitarian regime on the one hand and an appeasement regime on the other hand? ZIP!

Which Nation's political system adapted most successfully to the Great Depression and fielded enough healthy people to fight and help win a World War, saving Britain, France and Canada, among others, from the requirement to learn German or Japanese?

But then I suppose helping the vanquished nations rebuild and lay the foundation for their present day liberal democratic governments doesn't measure up to your myopic standards of political worth.

"You know, sometimes it is better to be a rigid ideologue rather than a spineless, wishywashy amnesiac. (No, it's not and it's a false choice) Bush sometimes speaks the truth, but I don't trust him for doing so. And I usually am very nervous about his motives when he does so. Still, it's the complacent "good" Americans who enable the Empire builders and the wannabe Nazis of the New World Order."

You've now firmly established for all to read that you are the historical amnesiac and that you stand for nothing but the incessant trashing of America and Americans.

Any such monomaniacal, logically flawed and obsessive stance is still more evidence of your moral imbecility.

You've also established that you have neither the moral discrimination nor the physical courage to defend a single principle that Great Britain, the USA and yes, Canada stood for and fought for against the steeped in culture German Reich.

So then why should any of us take seriously your estimations of who among us are 'Good Americans' and who are the 'enablers', let alone your moronic assertion that we're heading for an American Reich? Climb back under you bed, you feckless, frightened whiner.

3:12 PM  
Anonymous david said...

Well, Dale H, it's my birthday and I've been making rather merry or I'd reply with something more succinct.. LOL
I fear I might make a typo as I am drunk.

Dear me. You do seem hyper sensitive. Can't you admit that you are the new Roman Empire? Or does that make you uncomfortable?

BTW, I think Canada has a greater claim on Alexander Bell. The telephone was first tested in Ontario and he prefered to live in Nova Scotia. He claimed American citizenship for business purposes.

Sadly, I must report that you are deluded as to American preeminence in art, literature, music, etc. America did invent the skyscraper, but that behemoth must perish with Global Warming as it is based on a false premise.

What you fail to address, Dale H, is America's complicity in genocide the world over. It can't be ignore. My favorite American author, Mark Twain, prefered Florence, Italy to America. And he had seen first hand the brutality of the West.

BTW, I still don't see your obsession with Western Values. It seems to me based on some kind of nostalgia for PBS specials or something. I think Confucius might have more to offer. Consider the five relationships: Parent to Child, Ruler to Ruled, Senior to Junior, Husband to Wife, and Friend to Friend. The US Constitution may speak of Rights, but what about Duties. Eh?

BTW, most of your Rights --can you even translate Habeas corpus??? Come from English law. 500 years before the Declaration of Independence.

I'm sorry, Dale H. You are the sad example of an America stuck in the past, dreaming of the great days gone. You don't even understand how Nazi Germany evolved from a great civilization or how the same evil can have emerged from the Land of Lincoln, Jefferson, and Roosevelt.

I'm not saying you're heading for a Reich. I'm saying you're already there. And you've been there for 6 years. And you've done nothing but talk armchair politics. Stop being a weasel. Try reading the great Robert Fisk: Lies & Outrages...Would you believe it? But I suspect you're too much the coward.

5:47 PM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

"david said... Well, Dale H, it's my birthday and I've been making rather merry or I'd reply with something more succinct.. LOL
I fear I might make a typo as I am drunk."

How can we tell? You're no more logical or persuasive in this pathetic response than you are in your so called sober screeds!


"Dear me. You do seem hyper sensitive. Can't you admit that you are the new Roman Empire? Or does that make you uncomfortable?"

Dear me, not even a little uncomfortable since most of your historical references and comparisons are so facile that I find myself in a very
agreeable state of hilarity.

"BTW, I think Canada has a greater claim on Alexander Bell. The telephone was first tested in Ontario and he prefered to live in Nova Scotia. He claimed American citizenship for business purposes."

Stake your claim, but an American citizen he was, American the patent is and American the Bell company that commercialized telephony was .
Trace the development of electronics all the way to that MRI we're awaiting the results on. Get back to us on both. By the way, Albert landed at Princeton and we all know where he came from.

"Sadly, I must report that you are deluded as to American preeminence in art, literature, music, etc. America did invent the skyscraper, but that behemoth must perish with Global Warming as it is based on a false premise."

Sadder still, I never claimed "pre-eminence" but rather significant contributions in all fields then as now.

Your take on the utility of the skyscraper is belied by the progress in Green Building Technology and the construction underway worldwide.
Do they have Sprint TV ads up there? There's one where this movie cowboy keeps getting the shit slapped out him while attempting to unholster his gun.
Meant to depict he superior speed of Sprint's air card. I think of you whenever I view it and every time I demolish one of your many ill-thought out statements.
Know you'll love the cowboy reference!


"What you fail to address, Dale H, is America's complicity in genocide the world over. It can't be ignore. My favorite American author, Mark Twain, prefered Florence, Italy to America. And he had seen first hand the brutality of the West."

What you fail to address is that we've also fought against genocide. But then, why would one expect you to recognize that anything is worth fighting for or against?

Cite as many of your favorite expatriate/vacationing Americans as you like, it doesn't change the predominant pattern of emigration to America. Funny how many want to be citizens in the new 'Rome'!

"BTW, I still don't see your obsession with Western Values. It seems to me based on some kind of nostalgia for PBS specials or something. I think Confucius might have more to offer. Consider the five relationships: Parent to Child, Ruler to Ruled, Senior to Junior, Husband to Wife, and Friend to Friend. The US Constitution may speak of Rights, but what about Duties. Eh?"

Which is why Confucianism has served as the constitutional and governmental model for liberal democracies and all other forms of
government the world over. I swear I've done a disservice to bat shit by likening your degree of craziness to it! What about DUTIES, eh? Now what would
a feckless sort such as yourself know about 'duty'? You still cannot identify a single thing that you stand FOR. Once again a fish attempts to mount a bicycle.

I still don't see your inability to make a value judgment on behalf of your own Country's values which are decidedly Western. Will that make you person non grata among your fellow ideologues? And you position yourself as a disciple of Niemoller? You'll have to grow a pair first.

Here's the salient difference, cupcake. I recognize both the depredations committed by all cultures against others as well the values that some cultures institute and try to live up to curb their worst tendencies.

"BTW, most of your Rights --can you even translate Habeas corpus??? Come from English law. 500 years before the Declaration of Independence."

A salutary contribution to Western Culture, wouldn't you agree? Unlike you, I acknowledge the lineage and heritage. You trash it insistently and often, except when you attempt to slip in a cheap point....and you can't even do that without exposing your incoherent world view. You're a hoot!

"I'm sorry, Dale H. You are the sad example of an America stuck in the past, dreaming of the great days gone. You don't even understand how Nazi Germany evolved (I believe the more accurate word is 'devolved') from a great civilization or how the same evil can have emerged from the Land of Lincoln, Jefferson, and Roosevelt."

You apologize a lot, not that you haven't written enough to apologize for. Thanks again for demonstrating that your powers of discernment, perspective and proportion are severely impaired drunk or sober.

"I'm not saying you're heading for a Reich. I'm saying you're already there. And you've been there for 6 years. And you've done nothing but talk armchair politics. Stop being a weasel. Try reading the great Robert Fisk: Lies & Outrages...Would you believe it? But I suspect you're too much the coward."

You 'suspect' as only one who hides on the Internet can. No sober person, literally or figuratively, can state with either a straight face or with a shred of credibility
that America is a 'Reich". You are a serially compulsive moral imbecile. Get some treatment before you strike again!

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity"
Now we can all agree that your monomaniacal 'conviction' that America and Americans suck is not the kind of conviction Yeats was writing about. And since we are left only with your passionate intensity against America, we can fairly infer from your inability to identify what you value or stand for that you're not to be found among the "best". I could amend Yeats' quote to indicate what else I think the worst are full of, particularly in your case, but I think even you catch my drift.

"Great" though Fisk may be, he is not without flaws. Flawed as America is, neither is she without greatness. Uh, oh, put that drink DOWN! Your head is spinning, now the room too. TWO sides to two issues. You're head is gonna freakin' explode! Not to worry party goers, if any of you are left after David lapses into his umpteenth maudlin hand wringing iteration of Amerika the Bad, there's only likely to be a very few pieces of atrophied grey matter to police up.


("While acknowledging "his brilliant and vivid reporting", Hoggart concludes that Fisk's pessimism reveals judgment that is, "not just mistaken, but reliably mistaken".)

Clearly you're more a 'Fiskian' than a 'Niemollerian'.
Criticism
Fisk's reporting and commentary style has made him the object of much criticism, to the extent that some bloggers[18][19][20] have coined the blogosphere term fisking ("a point-by-point refutation of a blog entry or a news story"). [21][22][23][24]

In an essay titled, "Why does John Malkovich want to kill me?", Fisk states that he and other journalists who criticize U.S. and Israeli policy in the Middle East will have to deal with hate mail and death threats. In that essay, he refers to actor John Malkovich's remark in May 2002 at the Cambridge Union Society, when asked who he would like to fight to the death, that he would rather just shoot Fisk.[25]

Guardian columnist Simon Hoggart (also a former Northern Ireland reporter), has leveled criticism at Fisk for being, "dreadfully pessimistic" since 9/11, because of his predictions that "the (actions of the) West (in response to 9/11) was about to bring total disaster upon its own head". Hoggart also cites claims brought forward in commentary submitted by Fisk over the years, specifically that "a group of British soldiers lost in the desert" meant that Desert Storm would fail, and that the bombing campaign during the Kosovo crisis would "only make things worse" . While acknowledging "his brilliant and vivid reporting", Hoggart concludes that Fisk's pessimism reveals judgement that is, "not just mistaken, but reliably mistaken".[26]

Ethan Bronner, in a New York Times review of Fisk's book, The Great War for Civilisation argues that Fisk is "most passionate and least informed about Israel," pursues his agenda "nearly to the exclusion of the pursuit of straight journalism" and allows his points to be "warped by his perspective."[27]

Israeli historian Efraim Karsh, in a Commentary Magazine book review, commented on what he saw as Fisk's carelessness with facts:

It is difficult to turn a page of The Great War for Civilisation without encountering some basic error. Jesus was born in Bethlehem, not, as Fisk has it, in Jerusalem. The Caliph Ali, the Prophet Mohammed’s cousin and son-in-law, was murdered in the year 661, not in the 8th century. Emir Abdallah became king of Transjordan in 1946, not 1921. The Iraqi monarchy was overthrown in 1958, not 1962; Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem, was appointed by the British authorities, not elected; Ayatollah Khomeini transferred his exile from Turkey to the holy Shiite city of Najaf not during Saddam Hussein’s rule but fourteen years before Saddam seized power. Security Council resolution 242 was passed in November 1967, not 1968; Anwar Sadat of Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1979, not 1977, and was assassinated in October 1981, not 1979. Yitzhak Rabin was Minister of Defence, not prime minister, during the first Palestinian intifada, and al-Qaeda was established not in 1998 but a decade earlier. And so on and so forth.[28]

The media watchdog CAMERA (which tends to take a pro-Israel stance) has criticised Fisk on a number of occasions for things he has written or said. In one case, they criticised Fisk for quoting an Israeli journalist to the effect that "[Israeli PM Menachem] Begin described [the Palestinians] in a speech in the Knesset as 'beasts walking on two legs'." According to CAMERA, Begin was not speaking about Palestinians in general but only about terrorists who harm Israeli children.[2][3]

CAMERA also accused Fisk of asserting that journalistic objectivity is "no longer relevant" to the Middle East and that instead journalists are "morally bound ... to show eloquent compassion to the victims

8:24 PM  
Anonymous david said...

Ah, Dale H, you do need to take some time off and read. I think you'll find even the meanest Briton or Armenian knew that power and influence lay in Rome during the first three centuries of the Common Era. It had nothing to do with approving of Rome's Empire --even the early Christian shook the dust from their sandals and headed for the Eternal City though the risk of torture and execution was great.

I'm not sure why you mention Einstein. That sort of proves my point that America's Arts & Sciences are mostly populated by refugees. I recall a funny story about a meeting of American atomic research scientists where Edward Teller looked round the room and said, "Gentlemen, why are we speaking English when we could be speaking Hungarian?"

And I don't get your references to MRI. It was a joint American-British discovery. Unless you're claiming the Univ of Nottingham as being part of Ohio.

I'm not moved by your attacks on Fisk. He is the subject of great abuse because he doesn't toe the official Israeli line. And you'll see in your own quotes that his critics have to acknowledge he's a great journalist and brilliant writer. They just wish he weren't so honest. (You might check out Israeli historian Benny Morris to see that Big Lies have been part of Middle East history for the past century.)

You must be living in a bubble, Dale H. Open any magazine or book and you'll find America being compared to the Third Reich by Americans. Try reading Philip Roth or Gore Vidal or Noam Chomsky.

BTW, Hitler greatly admired many racist aspects of America and used them when drafting his Race Laws. You might even consider How America Inspired the Third Reich.

Now, I do hope I keep adding to the discussion of LGND's original post. It's all great fun having a catfight and I'm sure Dale H gets off on it too. But the debate is about the demise of the Republican Party. I would like to bring to the reader's attention that Ron Paul is bringing attention to the fact that the GOP has strayed from its roots. See Ron Paul for President???

I may have been drunk last night, but today I am sober. And I have to suggest to Dale H that, just as in the 12 Steps of AA, the first step to dealing with the problem of a Fascist America is to admit that America is Fascist. Pretending it's just a few rotten apples --Wasn't that Bush's take on Abu Ghraib?-- just doesn't cut it. Claiming one doesn't have blood on one's hand is a favorite line of the Sopranos, isn't it? Indeed, the Mafia is a good metaphor for the American Empire. (There's a line from the movie Some Like It Hot where the mobster proudly states "27 charges and no convictions.")

9:08 AM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

david said...

"Ah, Dale H, you do need to take some time off and read. I think you'll find even the meanest Briton or Armenian knew that power and influence lay in Rome during the first three centuries of the Common Era. It had nothing to do with approving of Rome's Empire --even the early Christian shook the dust from their sandals and headed for the Eternal City though the risk of torture and execution was great."

And of course you can find both legal and illegal immigrants being tortured and executed here in exactly the
same way. Just how many brain cells did you kill off last night? It's not like you've got quality backup now is it?

"I'm not sure why you mention Einstein. That sort of proves my point that America's Arts & Sciences are mostly populated by refugees. I recall a funny story about a meeting of American atomic research scientists where Edward Teller looked round the room and said, "Gentlemen, why are we speaking English when we could be speaking Hungarian?"

A pertinent response, and upon reflection one that would occur to anyone with your alleged knowledge of History and with a perspective you're lacking..."Ed, are you freakin' kidding?! Remember the Fuehrer's 'distaste' for "Jewish Physics"? It was here or the crematoriums."


Actually, if you'd follow your own advice and read more carefully than you apparently do, you'd know that we're a nation of refugees. Why particularize it to the Arts and Sciences? And they came/come here, money grubbing capitalists and Reich enablers that they must be?


And I don't get your references to MRI. It was a joint American-British discovery. Unless you're claiming the Univ of Nottingham as being part of Ohio.


I'm claiming that the pioneering work in particle physics that led to the MRI was done by Americans. More particularly, no pun intended, "Tom Meade, a chemist at the California Institute of Technology, came up with a special magnetic dye that, when injected into a patient, imparts more-detailed information, helping doctors to better diagnose diseases in potentially any organ." This was the breakthrough in 1998 that transformed the MRI into the tool that, upon your examination with one, will confirm that you are an invertebrate.

"I'm not moved by your attacks on Fisk. He is the subject of great abuse because he doesn't toe the official Israeli line. And you'll see in your own quotes that his critics have to acknowledge he's a great journalist and brilliant writer. They just wish he weren't so honest. (You might check out Israeli historian Benny Morris to see that Big Lies have been part of Middle East history for the past century.)"


It's abundantly clear that you do have a tough time holding two opposing thoughts in your mind while futilely attempting to retain the ability to function, but we're not even talking about such an insurmountable feat for you here. One could very well be a "great journalist and brilliant writer" and still be guilty of "judgment that is, not just mistaken, but reliably mistaken".[26]


Neither am I moved by your crying 'Big Lie' against every single opposing argument you are presented with. Just the freakin' law of averages would make that a statistical impossibility, except to the mind of a rigid ideologue like yourself.


"You must be living in a bubble, Dale H. Open any magazine or book and you'll find America being compared to the Third Reich by Americans. Try reading Philip Roth or Gore Vidal or Noam Chomsky."


You must be deficient in critical thinking skills and logic to a nearly crippling degree. That America IS being compared to the Third Reich does not mean that the comparisons are valid. You repeatedly evidence a childlike levels of credulity to any argument that reinforces your distorted views of America.

"BTW, Hitler greatly admired many racist aspects of America and used them when drafting his Race Laws. You might even consider How America Inspired the Third Reich.


BTW, you patronizing asshat, I'm well aware of the American eugenics laws and O. W. Holmes opinion on the matter. You might consider the role we played in dismantling the Third Reich. Again, neither the state of American Jim Crow 'laws' 70 years ago nor alleged American 'inspiration' for the Third Reich would persuade any fair minded person, not crippled by your similarly poor reasoning skills, that America is now remotely comparable to the Third Reich.


"I may have been drunk last night, but today I am sober." (You were also a blind ideologue incapable of logical argument last night, and today you present with the same handicaps.)

"And I have to suggest to Dale H that, just as in the 12 Steps of AA, the first step to dealing with the problem of a Fascist America is to admit that America is Fascist." (Also the first step in just the kind of brain washing I suspect you applaud.)

Pretending it's just a few rotten apples --Wasn't that Bush's take on Abu Ghraib?-- just doesn't cut it. Claiming one doesn't have blood on one's hand is a favorite line of the Sopranos, isn't it? Indeed, the Mafia is a good metaphor for the American Empire." (Not really. It's just another of your embarrassingly facile mental droppings.)


("There's a line from the movie Some Like It Hot where the mobster proudly states "27 charges and no convictions.")


There's a line from an episode of HBO's "Curb Your Enthusiasm" that applies to so many of your poorly reasoned, factually challenged diatribes. "That's just a big bowl of stupid" .

3:26 PM  
Anonymous david said...

Dear me, Dale H. You really do disappoint. It must be tough being in denial. It's nice to see my lines mingled with yours; it just proves I'm a much better writer.

What exactly are you hoping? That your National Nightmare is just a bad dream and that you'll soon wake up? Don't count on it. America has a dark history and it's largely been covered up. You do know America's eugenics programs ran into the 1970s in some states. Hardly the thing one expects after Auschwitz, eh?

Now, I don't think your arguments against Fisk, Roth, Vidal or Chomsky are very strong. These guys have answered most of their critics and can give as good as they get. And they're much more polished than I am. However, I'll give you a few softballs: I posted a link to something called the Nazi Nexus, but I sincerely doubt the Rove/Birkenau link is true; Rove's family tree is something of a mess and a mystery.

Now, as to Einstein, you do know the story of the S.S. St. Louis? 900 Jewish refugees denied entry to the USA and sent back to Nazi Germany and certain death. Roosevelt was blackmailed by those racist Dixiecrats who hated Jews as much as they hated Blacks. Again, I'll give you a freebee and admit that Canada later denied entry to the S.S. St. Louis as well. (When asked about how many Jewish refugees Canada could take, our minister of immigration said "None is too many.")

Dear me! Those wonderful Western Values! As long as they didn't have to included Jews, Blacks, Asians, and Communists. (And in some circles you'd find Catholics added as in the typical sign on an American tavern: No Jews, No Negroes, No Dogs, No Irish!)

Again, I'm not sure how you can mount an effective defence of human values if you deny the fascist fact of American society today. Consider 14 Points of Fascism.

I wish I could say the Jim Crow laws were 70 years in the past, but just who is it decimating the Civil Rights branch of the DoJ? And who is purging blacks from the voter rolls? Come on. Only an Amnesiac could pretend that America was racist "back then" and "not now".

One reason the Bush White House kept calling Canada a haven for terrorists is because, for the past 50 years, we've had a very liberal immigration policy. One reason the Conservative Party could only manage 124 seats out of 308 in the last election is because they couldn't claim many seats in French Quebec or in urban areas.

Let's face it --and again I'm going back to LGND's original post-- the GOP is doomed because the World really isn't a White majority. And what is White culture? You speak of some West --I suppose you love Oswald Spengler. But the West never really existed. Your history is bogus. What there was was a arms race and France, Britain and Germany tried to impose their wills on the rest of the world. But they failed. And I see far more of value in multiculturalism than I do in the sayings of a few bitter Scotsmen.

7:16 PM  
Anonymous david said...

Oh, I couldn't resist adding a link to Antonia Zerbisias's blog explaining Fisking to Fisk. A.Z. is another great media journalist. and note she defines fisking as something done by Right Whingers. Franked & Fisked.

What amuses me is that Fisking is what you do, Dale H. Instead of actually providing a counter arguement, you cut & paste my posts and add snarking and mocking commentary. It's sometimes absurd how you avoid responding to my evidence and merely "refute" my conclusions --usually with no evidence but mere abusive language and threats.

And it's particularly strange that you then claim that I've never refuted your outrageous claims when I have offered plenty of evidence, links and differing opinions. You seem to be like Mitt Romney who claimed Saddam had to be bombed by Bush because he had refused to let the UN weapons inspectors in. This is American discourse now --just saying something makes it true. It's the classic Big Lie --which seems to irk you, Dale H-- but then the really Big Lie is that America is the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. I mean, anyone who doesn't laugh beer through their nose when Bush says "They hate our freedoms" clearly doesn't know which end is up.

8:11 PM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

david said:

"Dear me, Dale H. You really do disappoint. It must be tough being in denial. It's nice to see my lines mingled with yours; it just proves I'm a much better writer.

Dear me, still jumping to unwarranted and ridiculous conclusions. Your lines are identified by quotes and they are included because you have such a tough time with continuity. Your standards of 'proof' are as weak as your arguments.

"What exactly are you hoping? That your National Nightmare is just a bad dream and that you'll soon wake up? Don't count on it. America has a dark history and it's largely been covered up. You do know America's eugenics programs ran into the 1970s in some states. Hardly the thing one expects after Auschwitz, eh?"

I AM counting on it you poor, hand wringing nellie. America, like most nations, has a checkered history, a decided mixture of good and bad. Monomaniacal, reasoning impaired fools like yourself see only the bad. I do know that the 'American eugenics program' was exposed for what it was by a free press and that it was terminated. However continue with the moral imbecility and try an equate that program with Auschwitz, eh?"

"Dear me! Those wonderful Western Values! As long as they didn't have to included Jews, Blacks, Asians, and Communists. (And in some circles you'd find Catholics added as in the typical sign on an American tavern: No Jews, No Negroes, No Dogs, No Irish!)"

Dear me, having some trouble with the space time continuum? No progress of expanded inclusion whatsoever? Want to cite the location of that American tavern and more importantly the date it existed?

"I wish I could say the Jim Crow laws were 70 years in the past, but just who is it decimating the Civil Rights branch of the DoJ? And who is purging blacks from the voter rolls? Come on. Only an Amnesiac could pretend that America was racist "back then" and "not now"."

You can say it because it's true. Doesn't mean there isn't racism in your country or mine, just less of it than 70 years ago.
Only a moral and political illiterate would jump to the conclusion that the Bush administration's shenanigans represent a straight line irreversible trend toward your imaginary fascist society.

"Again, I'm not sure how you can mount an effective defence of human values if you deny the fascist fact of American society today. Consider 14 Points of Fascism."

See previous statement.

"Let's face it --and again I'm going back to LGND's original post-- the GOP is doomed because the World really isn't a White majority. And what is White culture? You speak of some West --I suppose you love Oswald Spengler. But the West never really existed. Your history is bogus. What there was was a arms race and France, Britain and Germany tried to impose their wills on the rest of the world. But they failed. And I see far more of value in multiculturalism than I do in the sayings of a few bitter Scotsmen."

You also see more value in Confucianism as a governing model than either the country of origin sees in it, or any other countries in the world see in it for that matter. So excuse me while I take a timeout to enjoy yet another bout of hilarity!

Agreed, the GOP, AKA the fascist clown car, has run off the road. So why the hysteria about fascism? My history is bogus? Yours is so clouded by that political correctness filter you look at everything through, that you've lost whatever intellectual honesty you might have once had. Most of the developing world aspires to the freedoms embodied in Western democracies. Perhaps you have some examples of those that don't? You elevate and equate multiculturalism to the status of a holy grail without the slightest reflection on the political insitutions and governing principles that create and protect multiculturalism.

"What amuses me is that Fisking is what you do, Dale H. Instead of actually providing a counter arguement, you cut & paste my posts and add snarking and mocking commentary. It's sometimes absurd how you avoid responding to my evidence and merely "refute" my conclusions --usually with no evidence but mere abusive language and threats."

Actually what I do is expose your weak ass arguments as evidenced by your own words. The counter arguments apparently are too difficult for you to apprehend. Evidence? Please, you've demonstrated so many logical flaws in your arguments, sweeping generalities, false analogies and just plain hysterical rants that merely pointing them out should be sufficient for any reasonable person to draw their own conclusions.
Your fear is palpable in your willingness to see fascism in a government that is no more competent to pull that off than they are competent in doing anything else. There's the fatal flaw in YOUR 'nightmare' scenario, cupcake.

As for the 'threats', relax. There's scarcely enough room in that frightened mind of yours to entertain your myriad of imagined threats from my Country, let alone conjuring up some imaginary ones from me.

"This is American discourse now --just saying something makes it true. It's the classic Big Lie --which seems to irk you, Dale H-- but then the really Big Lie is that America is the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. I mean, anyone who doesn't laugh beer through their nose when Bush says "They hate our freedoms" clearly doesn't know which end is up.

What 'irks' me is your projecting your weak ass reasoning onto me. Your crap is an unending litany of statements so transparently false that no amount of source citing can make them appear other than what they are: monomaniacal, obsessive, hysterical, hand wringing, error laden diatribes that don't stand up to scrutiny by anyone with an IQ above room temperature.

But thanks for reminding me why I make it a point not to have a beer handy whenever Bush is speaking......or whenever I'm reading your nonsense!

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

"America is headed for a soft dictatorship by the end of Bush's second term".

Thanks again for showing us what an hysterical, the sky is falling nut job you are.

10:39 PM  
Anonymous david said...

So, I see Israel has launched a spy satellite in prep for this summer's war on Iran. You don't think, Dale H, that a war on Iran wouldn't put an end to American democracy? Look how hysterical you become just because I won't kiss your flag. You've already decided Ahmadinejad is as bad as Hitler, so I can't see you standing up to illegal orders to take out Iran.

Do you know the book American Apartheid? Racism is alive and well in America. And segregation has been increasing since 1984, not decreasing. Remember: FoxNews is all about preserving White America.

I think you'll find it was Maoists who feared Confucius, not the Chinese. Indeed, the latest news out of Beijing is that Confucius is the #1 bestseller again. And the humanist values of Confucius have been around longer than your so-called White Western Values.

So, the Bush administration is incompetent? That may be, but they still call the shots and they'll have you marching off to Tehran before September. Don't be surprised when President Romney leads the nation in Mormon prayer in January 2009. I believe your National Nightmare is just beginning.

And me? I'm betting on the East. Give me Mumbai and Beijing any day over LA and Washington.

7:45 AM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

david said...

"So, I see Israel has launched a spy satellite in prep for this summer's war on Iran. You don't think, Dale H, that a war on Iran wouldn't put an end to American democracy? Look how hysterical you become just because I won't kiss your flag. You've already decided Ahmadinejad is as bad as Hitler, so I can't see you standing up to illegal orders to take out Iran."


Hilarious! Let's count the ways. Not like israel was exactly blind: "The Ofek 5 was supposed to have a four-year life span but it continues to produce high-resolution pictures. Its telescopic camera was designed by Elbit Systems and has variable direction capability."


"This summer", eh? Get back to us when that prediction falls through. And no, chicken little, I don't see our democracy failing any time soon notwithstanding your fatuous, contradictory claims that we're already a fascist Country and therefore no longer a democracy anyway. You can't even keep up with your own nonsensical 'logic'. As for wanting you to "kiss my flag"? Never stated, never implied. Just your fevered imagination working overtime. Odd that you would speculate about my willingness to "stand up", an invertebrate like yourself can only imagine. The fish and the bicycle thing again.


"Do you know the book American Apartheid? Racism is alive and well in America. And segregation has been increasing since 1984, not decreasing. Remember: FoxNews is all about preserving White America."


Now just how much de-facto segregation is occurring I can't say. But there is a real difference from the de-jure version that disadvantaged generations not just in housing. You of course overlook the growth of the African-American middle glass which itself has criticized it's own re-segregation away from less fortunate African-Americans. The truth is ALWAYS more complicated than your increasingly facile generalizations. A fair minded observation would note the increased and increasing presence of African-Americans in all professions. You probably know more about FAUX News than I do. You are clearly 'light headed', but do you actually suffer from low blood pressure? Just asking, because your familiarity with FAUX News suggests you may tune in for medical purposes.




"I think you'll find it was Maoists who feared Confucius, not the Chinese. Indeed, the latest news out of Beijing is that Confucius is the #1 bestseller again. And the humanist values of Confucius have been around longer than your so-called White Western Values."


You mean the same values that nurture our multicultural world and that you have neither the mental acuity to recognize nor the moral or physical courage to defend, if it ever came to that? How simple minded do you have to be to measure worth solely by longevity? How would you breakout that readership as between the ruling 'elite' and the ruled? See any evidence of Confucian values either expressed or institutionalized into practice by the Chinese government? Want to exchange you Parliamentary system for whatever governmental form Confucianism might take?


"So, the Bush administration is incompetent? That may be, but they still call the shots and they'll have you marching off to Tehran before September. Don't be surprised when President Romney leads the nation in Mormon prayer in January 2009. I believe your National Nightmare is just beginning."


That "may be"?! Down here the verdict is in, among non FAUX News viewers anyway. Knowing what you apparently like to watch, I can understand your hedging. You are just overflowing with predictions, and SO insightful! 'Believe' what you like, as there's no evidence of your familiarity, facility or comfort with reality based thinking. And do I detect more hopefulness than regret RE the many versions of "National Nightmare(s) you predict for/wish upon us? Anyone else? Anyone? Ferris? Why DO you seemingly pull for the DEMs in your posts while simultaneously expressing your contempt for everything the U.S. stands for or has ever done? Are you insincere, schizoid or just plain stupid?


"And me? I'm betting on the East. Give me Mumbai and Beijing any day over LA and Washington."


And I'll bet that you pulled for the Soviet Union during the Cold War, bet on the Japanese in the 80's and would've bet on Germany, Japan and Italy during WWII. Bet the house, asshat! I'll double down in the other direction while you ignominiously and foolishly wish the worst.

1:30 PM  
Anonymous david said...

Well, Dale H, I certainly will give Fisking you a try. However, it's a poor substitute for critical analysis.

Dale H said...

"Hilarious! Let's count the ways. Not like israel was exactly blind: "The Ofek 5 was supposed to have a four-year life span but it continues to produce high-resolution pictures. Its telescopic camera was designed by Elbit Systems and has variable direction capability."

Well, I'm not sure why your talking about Ofek 5 when I'm talking about Ofek 7. Ofek 7, Israel's Eye in the Sky, a story from Israel highlighted the capablity of spying on Iran.

" "This summer", eh? Get back to us when that prediction falls through. And no, chicken little, I don't see our democracy failing any time soon notwithstanding your fatuous, contradictory claims that we're already a fascist Country and therefore no longer a democracy anyway. You can't even keep up with your own nonsensical 'logic'. As for wanting you to "kiss my flag"? Never stated, never implied. Just your fevered imagination working overtime. Odd that you would speculate about my willingness to "stand up", an invertebrate like yourself can only imagine. The fish and the bicycle thing again."

Dale H, it may not happen. And yet why is Cheney talking up striking Iran militarily; why is Lieberman going on Sunday TV and urging aggressive military action against Iran; Bolton thinks we must attack: and McCain sings "Bomb, bomb, bomb. Bomb, bomb Iran!" Perhaps you think this is all just kidding around by a bunch of lame ducks. But I wouldn't count on it. And Israel? They blew up most of Lebanon last summer over two captured soldiers. You think they're the model of restraint?

Oh, I have no doubt who you'll stand up for when the time comes. Sadly, I don't think it'll be anyone liberal or progressive or even democratic. I fear your "independent" POV is more in line with Lieberman's than it is anyone who is willing to fight for the Bill of Rights. (You keep mentioning Niemoeller's poem derisively, so I suspect it hit nerve. Just as Chickenhawks who never fought clamor for war, armchair patriots accuse others of spinelessness.

Now just how much de-facto segregation is occurring I can't say. But there is a real difference from the de-jure version that disadvantaged generations not just in housing. You of course overlook the growth of the African-American middle glass which itself has criticized it's own re-segregation away from less fortunate African-Americans. The truth is ALWAYS more complicated than your increasingly facile generalizations. A fair minded observation would note the increased and increasing presence of African-Americans in all professions. You probably know more about FAUX News than I do. You are clearly 'light headed', but do you actually suffer from low blood pressure? Just asking, because your familiarity with FAUX News suggests you may tune in for medical purposes.

Gosh, how clever of you to call it FAUX News --as in French for false. Did you think that up yourself? I'm afraid I don't get FoxNews up here. I only know what I read in MediaMatters. But I can't believe you don't watch it avidly as you're always giving the Far Right the Fair & Balanced treatment, aren't you?

I'm glad you admit to knowing nothing about what actual segregation is happening in America. And of the African America middle class (or was that glass?) I think you know even less. I'm not sure where you're getting your facts. Wikipedia, again? Or the Great White Gibson? Do cite your sources for this uncommon common knowledge. I, however, will recommend Black Picket Fences: Privilege & Peril Among the Black Middle Class.

"You mean the same values that nurture our multicultural world and that you have neither the mental acuity to recognize nor the moral or physical courage to defend, if it ever came to that? How simple minded do you have to be to measure worth solely by longevity? How would you breakout that readership as between the ruling 'elite' and the ruled? See any evidence of Confucian values either expressed or institutionalized into practice by the Chinese government? Want to exchange you Parliamentary system for whatever governmental form Confucianism might take?"

Let me guess, Dale H, you really don't know anyone from China, do you? And I hear your CIA has outsourced its Asian spy network to the Beijing government. (Just kidding, but it's almost as good as the Dubai Ports deal.) Your vanity is quite amusing. But you really ducked the whole issue of whether Confucius, who gave China the longest continual civilization, is better than that haphazard Enlightenment, which gave us Hitler's Auschwitz and Stalin's Gulags. American individualism provides no security for humanity, which has been routinely traded away by redefining who is human when the time called for barbaric action.

"That "may be"?! Down here the verdict is in, among non FAUX News viewers anyway. Knowing what you apparently like to watch, I can understand your hedging. You are just overflowing with predictions, and SO insightful! 'Believe' what you like, as there's no evidence of your familiarity, facility or comfort with reality based thinking. And do I detect more hopefulness than regret RE the many versions of "National Nightmare(s) you predict for/wish upon us? Anyone else? Anyone? Ferris? Why DO you seemingly pull for the DEMs in your posts while simultaneously expressing your contempt for everything the U.S. stands for or has ever done? Are you insincere, schizoid or just plain stupid?"

Well, I express contempt for Fascist America --not the ideals of Jefferson, Franklin, and Lincoln. You're the one defending Fascist America by pretending that Bush & Co is just a passing phase. I didn't think Bush would win in 2000, but then your MSM obligingly covered up his ignorance while slandering Gore. Then the same happened in 2004. Why do you think you can expect a Victory for Democracy in 2008? Fool me once...

"And I'll bet that you pulled for the Soviet Union during the Cold War, bet on the Japanese in the 80's and would've bet on Germany, Japan and Italy during WWII. Bet the house, asshat! I'll double down in the other direction while you ignominiously and foolishly wish the worst."

I'm confused, was America at War with Japan in the 1980s? Oh, right, that's just racist America talking. And the Cold War? Well, it was highly exaggerated, wasn't it? The real threat was Stalin and he died at the beginning of the 1950s. You wasted all that wealth building ICBMs that would never be used. LOL. And now you're helping Israel build it's ARROW network for it's nukes. How charming!

I did point out that your current President comes from a pro-Nazi family. Whereas Canada was at war with Japan, Germany and Italy long before America. Oh, I know, you'll claim you were behind Lend-Lease 100%. I don't think so. Try reading the newspapers from before Pearl Harbor. Then read Philip Roth's The Plot Against America. LOL. You know, Dale H, for someone who vomits the First Amendment in each post, you sure hate anyone to disagree with you.

And that's my Fisking. -30-

6:57 PM  
Anonymous Dale h said...

david said:"

"Well, I'm not sure why your talking about Ofek 5 when I'm talking about Ofek 7. Ofek 7, Israel's Eye in the Sky, a story from Israel highlighted the capability of spying on Iran."

Couldn't pick it up from the context? "it continues to produce high-resolution pictures."
A still functioning spy satellite, Ofek 5, which hardly lends supports for your hysterical 'war alert'.

"Oh, I have no doubt who you'll stand up for when the time comes. Sadly, I don't think it'll be anyone liberal or progressive or even democratic. I fear your "independent" POV is more in line with Lieberman's than it is anyone who is willing to fight for the Bill of Rights. (You keep mentioning Niemoeller's poem derisively, so I suspect it hit nerve. Just as Chickenhawks who never fought clamor for war, armchair patriots accuse others of spinelessness.

'No doubt'.......you should, it's more healthy. 'Sadly'.....'I fear'....you're a wreck David! You stand for NOTHING. That's why my 'diagnosis' is spot on!

I served. While that's fodder for contempt from the likes of you, you don't count. For that matter you stand indicted by your own sniveling words. What IS it with your reading comprehension problem? It's not Niemoeller's poem that I deride. It's the likes of you that I heap justifiable derision upon for your effrontery in aligning yourself with a poem that invokes courage and standing up for others.
Fish/bicycle......again!


"Gosh, how clever of you to call it FAUX News --as in French for false. Did you think that up yourself? I'm afraid I don't get FoxNews up here. I only know what I read in MediaMatters. But I can't believe you don't watch it avidly as you're always giving the Far Right the Fair & Balanced treatment, aren't you?"

Once again, your beliefs concern me not. Any push back against your reflexive hatred for America and Americans is viewed by you as 'far right'.
You know what I think of your critical thinking skills. But keep trying, you may eventually develop some. Never claimed FAUX News as my clever.
http://www.fauxnews.com/


"I'm glad you admit to knowing nothing about what actual segregation is happening in America. And of the African America middle class (or was that glass?) I think you know even less. I'm not sure where you're getting your facts. Wikipedia, again? Or the Great White Gibson? Do cite your sources for this uncommon common knowledge. I, however, will recommend Black Picket Fences: Privilege & Peril Among the Black Middle Class."

Not sure what your problem is with Wikipedia, other than your usual reflexive dismissal of sources other than your own and your intellectually crippling inability to accept any counterpoint. Still waiting for your source confirming location and year for this diddy.

"(And in some circles you'd find Catholics added as in the typical sign on an American tavern: No Jews, No Negroes, No Dogs, No Irish!)"
You weren't really trying to pass that off as a contemporaneous reflection on America, were you? You left that impression, asshat.

"Despite the poverty levels of many African American communities in the United States, African Americans collectively are more affluent than most other groups outside of the country. In 2006 the Selig Center estimated African Americans to have $852.8 billion USD in purchasing power, as a country African Americans would be the 18th wealthiest nation. Current information points to a continuation of a long-term trend toward parity with national levels and absolutely higher levels of affluence than those experienced by most populations outside the United States. Packaged Facts estimate African American purchasing power will be $981 billion by 2010. Since the mid to late 1990s, African American incomes have risen at a remarkable pace and the progress shows up at every income level - from the still-large but shrinking underclass, to the fast-developing black middle class, to the growing ranks of wealthy African Americans. Over 1.7 million African Americans have gone off the poverty rolls; earnings by African American women have moved to within a few percentage points of white women's; and unemployment among blacks in recent years has dropped below the 10 percent mark. The poverty rate among African Americans has dropped from 26.5% in 1998 to 24.7% in 2004."



david said:

"But you really ducked the whole issue of whether Confucius, who gave China the longest continual civilization, is better than that haphazard Enlightenment, which gave us Hitler's Auschwitz and Stalin's Gulags. American individualism provides no security for humanity, which has been routinely traded away by redefining who is human when the time called for barbaric action."

To state that the Enlightenment "gave us Hitler's Auschwitz and Stalin's Gulags" reflect a new high, or low, for you on the moral imbecile scale. You buried the needle on this one! IF Confucianism was such a breakthrough in human relations and governance, can you point to it's manifestation and spread?

I guess haphazard Confucianism couldn't inoculate against nor halt...Chinese democide. Could it have caused it? A fair question by davidian standards.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/MEGA.HTM

Chinese democide[2]:

Book: China's Bloody Century: Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900. Rutgers, New Jersey: Transaction Publishers, 1991: Preface, Chapter 1, Methods Appendix, References, and all tables of estimates, calculations and sources for each historical period.
"Reevaluating China's Democide to be 73,000,000" 11/20/05

"Well, I express contempt for Fascist America --not the ideals of Jefferson, Franklin, and Lincoln. You're the one defending Fascist America by pretending that Bush & Co is just a passing phase. I didn't think Bush would win in 2000, but then your MSM obligingly covered up his ignorance while slandering Gore. Then the same happened in 2004. Why do you think you can expect a Victory for Democracy in 2008? Fool me once...'

This perfectly encapsulates why I find YOU contemptible. At heart your a quitter. You can't conceive of fighting for ANYTHING, so you can't imagine or understand any one else doing so either. Failure of imagination AND nerve. And what's with this 5th grader's conception of the irreversibility of trends? Oops, same thing. No imagination or guts.

"Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left
to speak up for me." In your case I'm thinking that 'they're' thinking David never stood up for anything more passionately than he did for the trashing of America and Americans. More of that Yeats thing about what the 'worst' are filled with.


"...the ideals of Jefferson, Franklin, and Lincoln." Which ideals would those have been Confucian or Enlightenment? Man am I glad I put down my beer. My computer keyboard and screen would be reeking of hops by now!

"I'm confused, was America at War with Japan in the 1980s? Oh, right, that's just racist America talking. And the Cold War? Well, it was highly exaggerated, wasn't it? The real threat was Stalin and he died at the beginning of the 1950s. You wasted all that wealth building ICBMs that would never be used. LOL. And now you're helping Israel build it's ARROW network for it's nukes. How charming!"

Why do you insist on the word confused when ignorant works just fine? There was concern in the 80's that Japan's emerging economic might would overtake that of the United States...'economic' concern...look it up. Another trend that didn't quite sustain itself. I recall Kruschev's threat to 'Bury us"...that included you snowflake what with your NORAD radars looking toward the projected polar trajectory for Soviet ICBMS. Then there was that uneccesary Soviet provocation sneaking missiles into Cuba. Actually some of that missile investment led to the chip technology inside your computer and mine and numerous other electronic products and.....Tang! And I believe the ARROW network is a missile DEFENSE system.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/12/israel-successfully-tests-arrow-theater-missile-defense/index.php ...which I know you take as an uneccesary 'precaution' against your hero and peace loving Confucian, Ahmadinejad.

"I did point out that your current President comes from a pro-Nazi family. Whereas Canada was at war with Japan, Germany and Italy long before America. Oh, I know, you'll claim you were behind Lend-Lease 100%. I don't think so. Try reading the newspapers from before Pearl Harbor. Then read Philip Roth's The Plot Against America. LOL. You know, Dale H, for someone who vomits the First Amendment in each post, you sure hate anyone to disagree with you."

Of course much of America was ambivalent about bailing out the Commonwealth....again. And only a totally ignorant, ahistorical ingrate would carp about the level of 'enthusiasm' behind the loan, and ignore both the substance and the symbolism. Any fair reading of History, in addition to newspapers, will confirm that FDR was buying time to rearm. If you care to check you'll also find that there was considerable concern that the loaned destroyers might soon fall into German hands. Also check the U.S. military budgets and the beginning of the tooling over of the assembly lines, beginning in early 1940, that became the "Arsenal of Democracy". Oooh, I bet you hated reading THAT phrase! Try reading some real History in addition to that from noted historian Phillip Roth, you patronizing ignoramus! It's not hate, it's pure unadulterated and warranted contempt for the Canadian pedant who challenges, without merit, the timeliness of America's entry into WWII.

Too bad my exercise of the First Amendment offends you. Just too bad. But then it's not your First Amendment now is it? Would you fight to defend it were it yours to defend?

Sound of crickets chirping here.

9:35 PM  
Anonymous david said...

I am more inclined to give weight to the Ninth Amendment. It is here that we have to look for the positive --rather than negative-- rights of the People. The Ninth Amendment has never been invoked in a case before the Supreme Court. Indeed, the enumerated rights --nearly all of the negative Thou Shalt Not variety-- have been used to deny the People basic human rights as outlined in Confucianist Ethics. Exactly as James Madison had feared.

Did Japan threaten to "bury" the USA as did Nikita Khrushchev? I don't think so. American hostility to Japan's innovative economy only underscored the weakness in Laissez-faire Capitalism. Toyota now exceeds GM in automobile production. Indeed, America's big three automakers are whining about fuel efficiency targets as being unattainable --even though Japanese automakers have long met these goals.

Again, you need to look at the differences between Japan and America. Even with the sluggish years of the 1990s and early 21st century, Japan has not sacrificed its industrial base, as has America. And it maintains a high standard of living despite economic numbers that would have puzzled Milton Friedman.

I am confused by your belief that Ahmadinejad is a Confucianist. This is not true. Nor is he my hero, but you seem to be of the same "If you're not against them you must be for them" school as George Bush. And Mao was inspired by the Karl Marx & Vladimir Lenin, both from the West. Indeed, Mao made a point of suppressing Confucianism during his reign.

BTW, I would take the work of R J Rummel with a grain of salt. He's a Right Wing ideologue and has some rather bizarre notions about democracy and human psychology. That, and he's written some very bad novels. See Never Again.

And, as you requested, here's something to amuse you: No Dogs, No Blacks, No Jews! I'm not sure why you're in denial about racism in America. America is obsessed with race. Why is Obama's colour even newsworthy? Why do so many feel they need to threaten him with death because his father was Kenyan? Consider what Tommy Thompson said to a Jewish audience not long ago. You're right that people can't say these things publicly anymore, but they are said privately and discrimination continues though in a discreet and underhanded way.

And, again, to bring this back to LGND's post, the narrow-minded, racist, bigoted, and sexist nature of the Republican Party leadership has become increasingly hard to mask. Small c conservative and traditionalist values have been abused by the fascists in power.

I think the choice for us today is between socialist humanism and fascism. And America, by relying on militaristic solutions to every international question, is clearly fascist. I will not use abusive language to disparage your opinions, Dale H. No will I resort to comical sound effects (crickets chirping) to try to provide non-existent validity to a taunt. However, I do not see much hope for Peace or Humanity if America's Arsenal of Capitalism is not locked up.

10:37 AM  
Anonymous Dale H. said...

David said:

"I am more inclined to give weight to the Ninth Amendment. It is here that we have to look for the positive --rather than negative-- rights of the People. The Ninth Amendment has never been invoked in a case before the Supreme Court. Indeed, the enumerated rights --nearly all of the negative Thou Shalt Not variety-- have been used to deny the People basic human rights as outlined in Confucianist Ethics. Exactly as James Madison had feared."

Me, I'm more inclined to give much more weight to the first 10 Amendments and the Equal Protection clause of the 14th. Fortunately, throughout our History, so too has the U.S. Supreme Court....more often than not.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/chn-summary-eng

"Only a very few countries do not commit significant human rights violations, according to Amnesty International. In their 2004 human rights report (covering 2003) the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Iceland and Costa Rica are the only (mappable) countries that did not violate at least some human rights significantly." [23] Looks like neither your country nor mine nor China, nor Iran made the cut. I placed China and Iran in out of repect for your 'rooting' interests against the United States


"Did Japan threaten to "bury" the USA as did Nikita Khrushchev? I don't think so. American hostility to Japan's innovative economy only underscored the weakness in Laissez-faire Capitalism. Toyota now exceeds GM in automobile production. Indeed, America's big three automakers are whining about fuel efficiency targets as being unattainable --even though Japanese automakers have long met these goals.

Again, you need to look at the differences between Japan and America. Even with the sluggish years of the 1990s and early 21st century, Japan has not sacrificed its industrial base, as has America. And it maintains a high standard of living despite economic numbers that would have puzzled Milton Friedman."

My point was against taking current trends as straight line predictions of how the future will turn out. I repeatedly made that point, but YOU chose to turn it into an accusation of an anti-Japanese stance on my part.

"I am confused by your belief that Ahmadinejad is a Confucianist. This is not true. Nor is he my hero, but you seem to be of the same "If you're not against them you must be for them" school as George Bush. And Mao was inspired by the Karl Marx & Vladimir Lenin, both from the West. Indeed, Mao made a point of suppressing Confucianism during his reign."

Too bad for Confucians that Mao wasn't restrained by a Western political tool....Separation of Church from State.

Your rigid ideological stance has robbed you not only of objectivity and critical thinking skills but of your sense of humor as well.
You absolutely know better than to think I'd mistaken Ahmadinejad as a Confucian. A joke, a sarcastic joke. Context is everything. I repeatedly asked you how your idealization of Confucianism had translated as a governmental model not only for China but anywhere else.

BTW, I would take the work of R J Rummel with a grain of salt. He's a Right Wing ideologue and has some rather bizarre notions about democracy and human psychology. That, and he's written some very bad novels. See Never Again.

BTW Do you dispute the numbers? Cite your rebuttal. You keep insisting on dismissing sources ad hominem rather than upon the facts.

"And, as you requested, here's something to amuse you: No Dogs, No Blacks, No Jews! I'm not sure why you're in denial about racism in America. America is obsessed with race. Why is Obama's colour even newsworthy? Why do so many feel they need to threaten him with death because his father was Kenyan? Consider what Tommy Thompson said to a Jewish audience not long ago. You're right that people can't say these things publicly anymore, but they are said privately and discrimination continues though in a discreet and underhanded way."

Another reason why I have zero respect for you. Your original quote implied the existance of a sign on a public accommodation. You knew that is what it implied. I've never denied racism exists in this Country. You take Klan behavior and comments from right wing asshats as the model for American behavior. You extrapolate, generalize and do not qualify to the extent that your points are rendered at best meaningless and at worst the rantings of an America hating ignoramus. BTW using a post that includes a picture of some our knuckle scraping walking rebuttals to the notion of Intelligent Design, and implying that it would be a source of'amusement for me? GFYS!

"And, again, to bring this back to LGND's post, the narrow-minded, racist, bigoted, and sexist nature of the Republican Party leadership has become increasingly hard to mask. Small c conservative and traditionalist values have been abused by the fascists in power.'

Yes they have been abused by fascists in power. My point remains that those fascists are undoing themselves and that revelations will continue though the end of this Administration and beyond that will preclude the emergence of a fascistic American GOVERNMENT.

"I think the choice for us today is between socialist humanism and fascism. And America, by relying on militaristic solutions to every international question, is clearly fascist. I will not use abusive language to disparage your opinions, Dale H. No will I resort to comical sound effects (crickets chirping) to try to provide non-existent validity to a taunt. However, I do not see much hope for Peace or Humanity if America's Arsenal of Capitalism is not locked up."

Never kid a kidder. You've used enough abusive language toward me and about the U.S to warrant a charge of crocodile tears regarding your sudden 'swearing off'. You could not have been more intemperately clear about your ill wishes and contempt for America and Americans, nor more insultingly indiscriminate with your cries of racism and fascism. You over generalize nearly your every attempted point and qualify way too few of them. Note the use of the words 'nearly' and 'too few'. Only an intellectually undisciplined, blindly ideological hack overlooks them as frequently as you do.

As usual your limited imagination cannot conjure up more than a simplistic black and white choice that once again is a false choice.
IF "America's Arsenal of Capitalism" were locked up, what then. Peace in our time? Our beneficent, voluntary or enforced 'lockup' gentles
the condition of all mankind, particularly China, Iran and Al Quieda? And if you're wrong, then what? The point of my taunt stands. If you're wrong it won't be the likes of you that pays. And nothing that you have written affords me the least confidence in the perspicacity of your views.

12:25 PM  
Anonymous david said...

Dale H, I think you'll find I have seldom used abusive language. And certainly not in this thread. And not against you. Although you seem to love "asshat", "crazy batshit", and FU or GFYS. Such decorum!

Although I am half Icelandic (my mother's side) I certainly won't trumpet that, but I will give more informative links to Amnesty International. (I'm a member.) See The United States of America and Canada. The section on Canada is rather short and the cases are familiar & much discussed in the news here. Alas, the US media rarely mentions what America is up to. The recently disclosed CIA secret prisons was skpped by most of the MSM. Gotta love that Arsenal of Democracy!

Too bad for Confucians that Mao wasn't restrained by a Western political tool....Separation of Church from State. A Western political tool??? Would that be George Bush? And I'm not sure which church is being separated from the state. Neither Maoism nor Confucianism is a religion.

Again, you offer too much irrational faith to these mythical Western Values. We have been watching George Bush tear apart the Constitution and Americans cannot do anything. Even the Democrats, having regained control of Congress, can do little without the help of Republicans, who refuse.

I'm sorry, but your belief that Bush's government will unravel until the point of precluding fascism is based on the fallacy of the pendulum. There is no reason to believe that the Neo-cons will not be reelected in 2008. One may hope they aren't, but it remains wishful thinking. And a Fascist America remains a real possibility.

I fear the reality of this in the conclusion of your own post when you posit the need to meet China, Iran, and alQaeda with brute force. It's absurd for a so-called liberal to be embracing a revised version of Bush's Axis of Evil. Or to claim that you will remain a democracy while in a state of perpetual war. War & democracy cannot coexist. That's a given.

Now, I think you, Dale H, are the rigid ideologue. I find you are the one constantly trying to stand strawmen up against your dubiously righteous Arsenal of Democracy so you can knock them down. But I find your attempt to demonize various peoples and political parties of the world offputting and counterproductive.

I will offer a link to an essay by Amartya K. Sen. He won the Nobel Prize in Economics and he does not see much merit in this East/West divide. And he objects to simplistic solutions or bizarre stereotyping. Human Rights & Asian Values I greatly admire Prof Sen. And I think you'll find that he is a most fair and balanced author --in the true sense of the words. Sen is author of the Liberal Paradox.

I do think you, Dale H, are the one with a Black/White, West/East simplistic view of the World. You seem to think that America needs to stand up to the whole world or perish. This is paranoid nonsense. Indeed, you seem unaware that America is an oligarchy and not a democracy. Democracy is a word claimed by nearly every nation now. And one must look for balance and remember that much of the Talk of Western Freedom and Democracy is just that TALK.

2:47 PM  
Anonymous Dale h said...

david said...

"Dale H, I think you'll find I have seldom used abusive language. And certainly not in this thread. And not against you. Although you seem to love "asshat", "crazy batshit", and FU or GFYS. Such decorum!"


I consider your constant hammering of America and American's as fascist and racist to be abusive. And my lack of decorum is an appropriate response to your sanctimonious lectures, distortions and exaggerations.



"Although I am half Icelandic (my mother's side) I certainly won't trumpet that, but I will give more informative links to Amnesty International. (I'm a member.) See The United States of America and Canada. The section on Canada is rather short and the cases are familiar & much discussed in the news here. Alas, the US media rarely mentions what America is up to. The recently disclosed CIA secret prisons was skpped by most of the MSM. Gotta love that Arsenal of Democracy!"


Gotta love your amnesia about WWII, which is what my 'Arsenal' reference was confined to.

T"oo bad for Confucians that Mao wasn't restrained by a Western political tool....Separation of Church from State. A Western political tool??? Would that be George Bush? And I'm not sure which church is being separated from the state. Neither Maoism nor Confucianism is a religion."


OK, how about the main point about the restraint of government against whatever you want to define Confucianism as. How many of them do you suppose were in that disputed, by you, 75M killed?

Again, you offer too much irrational faith to these mythical Western Values. We have been watching George Bush tear apart the Constitution and Americans cannot do anything. Even the Democrats, having regained control of Congress, can do little without the help of Republicans, who refuse.


You are a moral imbecile to brand our Constitution and Bill of rights as mythical and you overestimate the damage Dubya has done and our ability to recover. But, that's you. You're weak, frightened and feckless. So of course we appear hopeless to you.


Why DO you post?


If we are such a hopeless basket case of a Country then what can you possibly write that will make the slightest difference?


There has to be something else behind your unremitting stream of insults, slander, and absurd generalizations and exaggerations

"I'm sorry, but your belief that Bush's government will unravel until the point of precluding fascism is based on the fallacy of the pendulum. There is no reason to believe that the Neo-cons will not be reelected in 2008. One may hope they aren't, but it remains wishful thinking. And a Fascist America remains a real possibility."


I'm sorry too, but my belief is based upon watching 40 plus years of American history and witnessing and understanding the forces of action and reaction. Your "fallacy of the pendulum" is a nonexistent construct by one who has never met a fallacy he didn't like. Your speculations as to what is wishful thinking are the simple projections of your own timid and frightened approach to life. No one is interested in your fears, speculations or false constructs, much less your compulsive need to share your low opinion of America with everyone who reads these posts.

"I fear the reality of this in the conclusion of your own post when you posit the need to meet China, Iran, and alQaeda with brute force. It's absurd for a so-called liberal to be embracing a revised version of Bush's Axis of Evil. Or to claim that you will remain a democracy while in a state of perpetual war. War & democracy cannot coexist. That's a given."


That's actually simplistic bullshit. Democratic/Representative Governments are less so during war. And, despite your baseless claims and absurd exaggerations American Representative government has never disappeared and magically reappeared.



"Now, I think you, Dale H, are the rigid ideologue. I find you are the one constantly trying to stand strawmen up against your dubiously righteous Arsenal of Democracy so you can knock them down. But I find your attempt to demonize various peoples and political parties of the world offputting and counterproductive"


You insist on trotting out my very specific, limited WWII reference like a dog with a favorite chew toy. Then you conflate it with your "Arsenal of Capitalism". Why do you do that?

"I will offer a link to an essay by Amartya K. Sen. He won the Nobel Prize in Economics and he does not see much merit in this East/West divide. And he objects to simplistic solutions or bizarre stereotyping. Human Rights & Asian Values I greatly admire Prof Sen. And I think you'll find that he is a most fair and balanced author --in the true sense of the words. Sen is author of the Liberal Paradox."


I'll look it over while you mull over the paradox of a so called liberal who holds every country in the world in higher regard than America. That bespeaks a lack of fair-mindedness, objectivity and perspective that borders on the pathological.



"I do think you, Dale H, are the one with a Black/White, West/East simplistic view of the World. You seem to think that America needs to stand up to the whole world or perish. This is paranoid nonsense. Indeed, you seem unaware that America is an oligarchy and not a democracy. Democracy is a word claimed by nearly every nation now. And one must look for balance and remember that much of the Talk of Western Freedom and Democracy is just that TALK."

Actually when I referred to "liberal democracies" I meant it in the generally understood context of representative and parliamentary government.

"one must look for balance"??? Look to your comments about the U.S before you presume to tell 'one' what one must do.

The U.S. Canada and Great Britain may be imperfect realizations, but they still provide more freedoms and protections for minorities than either of the TWO countries, NOT the whole freakin world, that I singled out as potentially threatening to not just the U.S. Now do you want to make a brief for poor misunderstood al Qaeda? How do YOU propose to deal with al Qaeda? Never mind. It's not your problem and I'm tired of your sanctimonious lectures on what America needs to do, be or become.

4:39 PM  
Anonymous david said...

Speaking Truth to Power, Dale H, that's what I'm doing. You are the World's Sole Superpower. And you aren't doing a very good job of it. It's all about the USA. Not a good attitude for the World's Cop. Imagine meeting the constable on the beat and finding he was more interested in his welfare than that of the community.

I will not play numbers games with you about genocide or democide or mass murder. Or to quote from Wikipedia "Note that Rummel's estimates for mass murder do not necessarily have broad academic acceptance." And Rummel's theory goes out of its way to eliminate democracies from these war crimes as it conflicts with his beliefs --and he is operating mostly on faith and not facts.

I will link to another essay by Prof Sen which may amuse you with its fairness and balance. How To Judge Globalism.

Capitalism does not equal Democracy, although that's how many American schoolbooks try to portray it. And America's arsenal is there to make the world safe for corporate capitalism, NOT democracy or freedom. And the democides in many countries of the world happen by weapons provided for by the USA. And, as you'd learn from the AI website, the USA refuses to restrict its arms trade.

And here is where I'd say we can see the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans: the Dems want to lead the world, the GOP want to rule the world. And, no, I don't think the GOP can be counted out in 2008. I think that is just lazy thinking.

Of course, patriotism can make one blind to one's nation's faults. "Love it or leave it" is the lazy way out. We are all in the same boat. We are family. And I cannot sit idly by while your country plots the bombing of Iran or any other country that smiles at Bush the wrong way.

7:32 PM  
Anonymous Dale H. said...

david said:

"Speaking Truth to Power, Dale H, that's what I'm doing. You are the World's Sole Superpower. And you aren't doing a very good job of it. It's all about the USA. Not a good attitude for the World's Cop. Imagine meeting the constable on the beat and finding he was more interested in his welfare than that of the community."

'It's all about the USA' is a revealing self
indictment/diagnosis of your pathological and obsessively monomaniacal fixation on America faults.

Equating what your write, laden at it is with sweeping generalizations, fallacies, misrepresentations and errors, as 'truth to power' is
self delusional nonsense. I'm still awaiting clarification on this typical, and typically sweeping, 'dear me' indictment that conflates the past with the present.

" Dear me! Those wonderful Western Values! As long as they didn't have to included Jews, Blacks, Asians, and Communists. (And in some circles you'd find Catholics added as in the typical sign on an American tavern: No Jews, No Negroes, No Dogs, No Irish!)

The 'community' you refer to of course would morph to a conflict free state of multicultural bliss and understanding if America, as you so clearly and repeatedly hope, is destroyed. 'Lazy thinking' or selective malevolence?

"I will not play numbers games with you about genocide or democide or mass murder. Or to quote from Wikipedia "Note that Rummel's estimates for mass murder do not necessarily have broad academic acceptance." And Rummel's theory goes out of its way to eliminate democracies from these war crimes as it conflicts with his beliefs --and he is operating mostly on faith and not facts."

You dismiss other nation's depredations against their own people as "numbers games" while you pathologically emphasize America's culpability, for as near as I can see from your posts, virtually all of the world's problems. Your skepticism of the 'numbers' regarding other nations crimes against humanity conflict with YOUR beliefs. How much fewer than the 70 M dead Chinese at the hands of other Chinese DO you 'accept' as accurate.
Your 'approach' goes out of its way to emphasize democracies war crimes and ignore totalitarian war crimes.


"I will link to another essay by Prof Sen which may amuse you with its fairness and balance. How To Judge Globalism."
What really 'amuses me" is your citing articles that exhibit 'fairness and balance", I read it, while you repeatedly exhibit an inability or unwillingness to inject the same into your remarkably intemperate trashing of America and Americans.

"And the democides in many countries of the world happen by weapons provided for by the USA. And, as you'd learn from the AI website, the USA refuses to restrict its arms trade."

They also happen by the other major arms providers such as Russia, China and France who also do not restrict their arms trade. You also ignore the role that blind political and religious ideologies play in countries unconstrained by political safeguards.

" Capitalism does not equal Democracy, although that's how many American schoolbooks try to portray it. And America's arsenal is there to make the world safe for corporate capitalism, NOT democracy or freedom.

Neither does Capitalism = fascism as you've so blithely and repeatedly linked them. Your lazy and loaded 'America's arsenal' phrase ignores the role that ANY nations 'arsenal', including Canada's, plays in legitimate defense or deterrence. Your emphasis betrays your naiveté and your refusal to acknowledge the world as it is.

"Of course, patriotism can make one blind to one's nation's faults. "Love it or leave it" is the lazy way out. We are all in the same boat. We are family. And I cannot sit idly by while your country plots the bombing of Iran or any other country that smiles at Bush the wrong way."

Pointless. I am not blind to my nations faults and nothing I've said can reasonably be interpreted to support your implication. "Love it or leave it" is in fact a lazy phraseology meant to label anyone who is not blind to one's nation's good points. Your post's RE America and Americans may just as well be labeled "Accept my take that your country represents unmitigated evil, that you are fascists and racists and any points to the contrary are unsupportable or misinformed." Your sweeping generalizations, broad condemnations, absence of perspective and blindness to every other nation's problems, faults or provocations is both lazy and irresponsible.

"And here is where I'd say we can see the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans: the Dems want to lead the world, the GOP want to rule the world. And, no, I don't think the GOP can be counted out in 2008. I think that is just lazy thinking."

While you're on your "lazy" chew toy, turn your supposed intellectual rigor upon your own statements. You have repeatedly implied and stated that anyone who thinks the U.S. can be turned around is delusional. Pointing out the weakened and weakening position of the Republican party is not equivalent to counting them out. Besides. I think you pretty much 'counted them out' with this statement: ""Let's face it --and again I'm going back to LGND's original post-- the GOP is doomed because the World really isn't a White majority."

3:36 AM  
Anonymous david said...

You know, Dale H, I really don't think you read what you critique. And you are the one tilting at windmills. I think LGND will recall that I have praised certain Americans and aspects of America in the comments section of her blog, but flag-waving is not the topic of this particular thread. I'm sorry if you can't stand the heat; maybe you should get out of the kitchen.

"It is all about America"! Yes, it is. It's not my monomania, but yours. I recall the eyeopening coverage of the Olympics in Atlanta. It was covered by Canada's CBC and an American network --I forget which. The CBC did a honest job of journalism, covering the sports and giving facts about the athletes. The American station operated on a time delay of between 5 & 10 minutes during which time they would focus on the American competitors, making excuses for those whom they knew had just lost or building up a surprise win. It was shameless. Particularly when the cameras fixated on third place Americans when the foreign winners of Gold & Silver were snubbed.

Dale H, I stand by my statement that the GOP is doomed because the World is not White and that you can't count them out in 2008. (Can't you hold two contradictory thoughts in your head, Dale H? I thought not.) Bush won twice and I knew his agenda was doomed from the get go. He invaded Iraq even though he knew what his father had been told would happen during an Iraq occupation --and it happened.

Dale H, there is no question that there are villains all over the world. I'm not naive. However, don't you find it somewhat surreal that America is busy torturing, murdering, and bombing in Afghanistan and Iraq and suddenly want to defend human rights in Iran? Is it possible??? Well, not with this president. He's just been shot down in a lie about Iran supplying arms to the Taliban. And we've seen how little Bush cared about the rights of Iraqis --even after they were 'liberated'.

Again, I'm speaking Truth to Power. If you can't handle it, Dale H, that's your problem. Calling me delusional or obsessive or whatever isn't a proper rebuttal. You can just disagree. But that isn't what you want, is it? You want to silence me. That's why you heap abuse on me, threaten me, and taunt me. It's not about healthy debate. And yes, I added Prof Sen's two essays because I was frustrated with your inability to be fair and balanced. I had to find someone who could argue the other side cogently because you certainly couldn't.

And that's that. I think all has been said. And if LGND should run a thread on what is great about America, I have plenty I could post. It's only in your paranoid imagination, Dale H, that any criticism of the USA is unmitigated EVIL.

5:44 AM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

David said:


"You know, Dale H, I really don't think you read what you critique. And you are the one tilting at windmills. I think LGND will recall that I have praised certain Americans and aspects of America in the comments section of her blog, but flag-waving is not the topic of this particular thread. I'm sorry if you can't stand the heat; maybe you should get out of the kitchen."

There you go again. A few pro forma comments about Dems and the "ideals" of long dead Americans inoculates you to insult and trash America with 98% of what you write? Could you favor us with any more clichés in one paragraph?! It's not a proverbial 'kitchen'
that your conducting your food fight from but rather a stinking land dump where you dump your poorly reasoned, disproportionate, mostly laughable and petulant rants about America. In other words, 'trash'.


"It is all about America"! Yes, it is. It's not my monomania, but yours. I recall the eyeopening coverage of the Olympics in Atlanta. It was covered by Canada's CBC and an American network --I forget which. The CBC did a honest job of journalism, covering the sports and giving facts about the athletes. The American station operated on a time delay of between 5 & 10 minutes during which time they would focus on the American competitors, making excuses for those whom they knew had just lost or building up a surprise win. It was shameless. Particularly when the cameras fixated on third place Americans when the foreign winners of Gold & Silver were snubbed."

Well, that certainly relieves you of responsibility for an incredible amount of poorly argued, unsubstantiated, and yes, monomaniacal hysteria about big bad America. We'll have to await the next Canadian based Olympics before we can scout some shameless athletic chauvinism from some sportscasters who get carried away pulling for the Maple Leaf. What is really shameless is your lame example and your pathetic extrapolation.
Really stuck with you though, didn't it?

Dale H, I stand by my statement that the GOP is doomed because the World is not White and that you can't count them out in 2008. (Can't you hold two contradictory thoughts in your head, Dale H? I thought not.) Bush won twice and I knew his agenda was doomed from the get go. He invaded Iraq even though he knew what his father had been told would happen during an Iraq occupation --and it happened.

You've clearly made up your mind that we are a doomed, fascist Nation. slipping the GOP in place of Nation fools no one who reads you. And you expect me to accept your 'prognostications'...hopes...for our doom? Nothing contradictory about my thoughts pointing out your incapacitated judgment. Do you 'stand' for anything that doesn't involve an unfortunate outcome for the United states?

"Dale H, there is no question that there are villains all over the world. I'm not naive. However, don't you find it somewhat surreal that America is busy torturing, murdering, and bombing in Afghanistan and Iraq and suddenly want to defend human rights in Iran? Is it possible??? Well, not with this president. He's just been shot down in a lie about Iran supplying arms to the Taliban. And we've seen how little Bush cared about the rights of Iraqis --even after they were 'liberated'."

Duh, Bush= America. America suck since beginning. You all fascist enablers. Boo-freakin'-Hoo. That's a more sophisticated analysis than your pap warrants, but twill serve.

"Again, I'm speaking Truth to Power. If you can't handle it, Dale H, that's your problem. Calling me delusional or obsessive or whatever isn't a proper rebuttal. You can just disagree. But that isn't what you want, is it? You want to silence me. That's why you heap abuse on me, threaten me, and taunt me. It's not about healthy debate. And yes, I added Prof Sen's two essays because I was frustrated with your inability to be fair and balanced. I had to find someone who could argue the other side cogently because you certainly couldn't."

'Handle it'? You've demonstrated crippling bias, arguments shamefully and laughably devoid of qualifiers, replete with logical fallacies and just plain dripping with hysteria and projections from your perpetualy frightened psyche. Back to the land dump metaphor. If your rants were given physical form I'd need a hazmat suit to 'handle it'. My 'virtual suit' works just fine, thank you! Calling you delusional, obsessive, monomaniaical, frightened, etc are PART of a proper rebuttal to you own intemperate, over the top and indiscrimiante rips of America and Americans

"And that's that. I think all has been said. And if LGND should run a thread on what is great about America, I have plenty I could post. It's only in your paranoid imagination, Dale H, that any criticism of the USA is unmitigated EVIL."

And you finish up with your typical straw man flourish. MUCH criticism of America is well founded, particularly about this administration.That is usually the substance of LG's posts. That's a much different proposition from your relentless parade of sweeping generalizations and unmitigated contempt that in your own words is, "All About America". Because of that obsessive focus, ANY criticism of the USA from YOU is suspect for the hatred and the rationality crippling grip of your rigid and now barely functional ideological mind.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see about your alleged response to a thread of dubious merit. Dubious in the sense that I don't take LG for a pest control specialist whose role is to lay bait just for the sport of trapping a poor, rigidly ideological mouse such as yourself.
Would be interesting to read though! I'll bet Wikipedia can bail you out if it comes to that. You certainly can't rely on whatever your formal education left you barren of.

Silence, you? Nah, that's what a barely closeted totalitarian like yourself would do if your fairy tale world suddenly materialized.

9:20 AM  
Anonymous david said...

I really don't know what to make of you, Dale H. So much invective and so little sense. And so much hurt pride over --what??? You don't support the current US administration, you wish the next will do you proud, and you insist --the current administration to the contrary-- that all America's crimes are in the past and that, if America wishes to judge other nations on their human rights records, it can. Why? Because the USA rocks.

You seem to have missed the point of the Olympic coverage: the US media manipulates the viewer and the story. News is Infotainment. It's fake. Just as most of the news you digest and use to make your "informed" decisions are FAKE.

Wake up, Dale H. Don't you realize you're Winton Smith. That you are engaged in your Two Minutes of Hate when you scream at me for telling you the Truth. That you live in Oceania and are eager to battle Eurasia or Eastasia, whichever one happens to be the mortal enemy of the day.

I know it sooths you to yell and spit at me. But it doesn't solve the problem of American fascism. You deny it exists, but that doesn't make it less real. You pretend that because the face you see in the mirror is not that of a neo-Nazi, all must be right with America. Or soon would be if only people would listen to your sage advice.

Not so. Not so. I offer Counter-Revolutionary Violence: Bloodbaths in Fact and Propaganda

Of course, I expect you, Dale H, to toss that link down the memory hole. You'll then counter my post by saying "Do it to Julia! Not to me. I love Big Brother."

Well, I don't know. I personally think you're confused and conflicted, Dale H. You seem to follow a progressive liberal line half of the time and then this knee-jerk jingoist patriot pops up spewing imperialist nonsense. You once taunted me with that line about holding two contradictory thoughts at the same time. Well, you have to accept that America is both Good and Evil. Uncle Sam has two faces. Can you see them both? If not, which one do you see?

11:44 AM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

david said...

"I really don't know what to make of you, Dale H. So much invective and so little sense. And so much hurt pride over --what??? You don't support the current US administration, you wish the next will do you proud, and you insist --the current administration to the contrary-- that all America's crimes are in the past and that, if America wishes to judge other nations on their human rights records, it can. Why? Because the USA rocks."


See what you can make of this. How can I possibly be accurately accused of thinking, let alone stating, that 'all of America's crimes are in the past'? Do you imagine my lack of support for Duby'a Admin is NOT largely due to the 'crime wave' they've inflicted on us and some of the rest of the world? I've repeatedly and specifically identified where I thought this country was wrong. It's simply gotten lost in your unending stream of 'America Sucks, all the time everywhere, unadulterated, overstated, hysterical crap. And what do you know of pride, hurt or otherwise. You stand for nothing BUT hypercriticism of America. As you said, it's "All about America".You simply are incapable of wrapping your mind around the concept that the President, whoever he is, is NOT America.


"You seem to have missed the point of the Olympic coverage: the US media manipulates the viewer and the story. News is Infotainment. It's fake. Just as most of the news you digest and use to make your "informed" decisions are FAKE."


I got the point completely. You overreacted, as though there were any other kind of reaction you're capable of, to some unprofessional 'homers' take on some sporting events and jumped to the conclusion that we're all a bunch of knuckle scraping cheerleaders for AMERIKA. As I've repeatedly said your 'America Sucks' filter has rendered you intellectually impotent to render anything approaching a calm and balanced judgment RE anything to do with America.


"Wake up, Dale H. Don't you realize you're Winton Smith. That you are engaged in your Two Minutes of Hate when you scream at me for telling you the Truth. That you live in Oceania and are eager to battle Eurasia or Eastasia, whichever one happens to be the mortal enemy of the day."


Thanks for you usual simplistic hijacking of literature to make yet another spurious point. Ironic that you would strike a Big Brother stance as the Mister of Truth within your own strained metaphor! I have to confess though that reading mush of your nonsense is analogous to having my face strapped to a rat cage. What triggered your Orwellian fantasies? the Edmund O' Brien film or your Classics Comic Books collection?



"I know it sooths you to yell and spit at me. But it doesn't solve the problem of American fascism. You deny it exists, but that doesn't make it less real. You pretend that because the face you see in the mirror is not that of a neo-Nazi, all must be right with America. Or soon would be if only people would listen to your sage advice."


Ahem, anyone want to step up with an 'advice counter'? You claim that American fascism not only exists, but that it is the dominant fact in American political and corporate life. You're claiming it to be true, or citing fellow hysterics who claim it to be true, doesn't make it so. You have been dropping your simplistic and fanciful bromides to 'fix' America in virtually every post you write.

"Not so. Not so. I offer Counter-Revolutionary Violence: Bloodbaths in Fact and Propaganda

Of course, I expect you, Dale H, to toss that link down the memory hole. You'll then counter my post by saying "Do it to Julia! Not to me. I love Big Brother."


First of all, no need to hang the travesty of Vietnam around my neck or to implicate all presently living Americans . You do that a lot with our History. And really now, which of the two of us is more likely to give up a loved one to save our own skins? This dip into Orwell together with your Niemoller quote suggest that you are harboring strongly repressed fears that you are not quite up to the heroic, and selfless behavior that one would expect from a socialist humanist, or simply from a decent human being. But then why would you expect so much from yourself when you are so clearly incapable of standing up for anyone or anything?

"Well, I don't know. I personally think you're confused and conflicted, Dale H. You seem to follow a progressive liberal line half of the time and then this knee-jerk jingoist patriot pops up spewing imperialist nonsense. You once taunted me with that line about holding two contradictory thoughts at the same time. Well, you have to accept that America is both Good and Evil. Uncle Sam has two faces. Can you see them both? If not, which one do you see?"

As a certified 'knee jerk' patient I'm not surprised that you would see that trait in anyone who took a more nuanced and realistic view of America and the world. Knee jerk to you is anyone who calls you on your monomaniacal obsession with America's faults. I guess when you're a hammer your whole world is a nail. What I have accepted is that America is capable of good and evil, as is EVERY other nation both historically and presently. America has DONE both good and evil, as has every other nation. No more, no less. Your obsessions, distortions, exaggerations and multiple fears are your problems. No need to repeatedly lay them out on the couch for the rest of us.

1:15 PM  
Anonymous david said...

Dale H: How can I possibly be accurately accused of thinking, let alone stating, that 'all of America's crimes are in the past'? and then
First of all, no need to hang the travesty of Vietnam around my neck or to implicate all presently living Americans . You do that a lot with our History.

Do you notice the pattern? You're eager to damn Maoist China for the deaths of 35 or 70 million --depending on which side of the bed Rummel got up on-- during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, but Vietnam is "History" and not to be hung around your neck. "Not my travesty," you squirm. And you're not even willing to read that Chomsky & Herman's point is that this is how America commits murder and it does it today too. And the Media still doesn't report it. Read What doesn't make the News.

And that's it for me. The weather is too nice and too hot for me to spend it trying to educate an old dog like you. 52 cards make a deck, 53 is the Joker. I shall let you have the last word. Make it count. Remember, you tend to prove what I've said with all your bombastic nonsense.

1:58 PM  
Anonymous Dale H said...

david said...

Dale H: How can I possibly be accurately accused of thinking, let alone stating, that 'all of America's crimes are in the past'? and then
First of all, no need to hang the travesty of Vietnam around my neck or to implicate all presently living Americans . You do that a lot with our History.

"Do you notice the pattern? You're eager to damn Maoist China for the deaths of 35 or 70 million --depending on which side of the bed Rummel got up on-- during the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, but Vietnam is "History" and not to be hung around your neck. "Not my travesty," you squirm. And you're not even willing to read that Chomsky & Herman's point is that this is how America commits murder and it does it today too. And the Media still doesn't report it. Read What doesn't make the News."


I guess the 'rat cage strapped to my face' metaphor really got to you. Too bad you can't handle your lame ass, miss-applied literary quotes turned back on yourself.

The point IS that you let every single country on the planet 'off the hook' that your are absolutely compelled to hang America on.
I've repeatedly read your one note slurs on America's past, without a single nod in the direction of any counter balancing good. That's as much as a distortion as the worst hagiography and intellectually dishonest enough to nail you as the moral imbecile that you are

Do I see a pattern? you bet. You can carelessly trash America's past and present, but the past of any other country is sacrosanct. You openly and unashamedly root for the worst to happen to America so that you can what? Smile and exclaim 'told you so"!

The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution? Nice Orwellian phrasing to soft pedal the murder of 35-75 million, give or take.

Remember I tend to prove? All I've proved, with your considerable help, is that your obsessive hatred of America has ruined whatever critical thinking skills you ever had. Your own words and pathetic quotes, from people far better and more courageous than you could ever be, betray you as a hero wannabe. Not gonna happen. This bears re-reading: You've demonstrated crippling bias, arguments shamefully and laughably devoid of qualifiers, replete with logical fallacies and just plain dripping with hysteria and projections from your perpetually frightened psyche.

Thanks for the deck count. An heroic accounting from one who clearly doesn't play with a full one.

Grateful that I won't have to read any more of your patronizing, sanctimonious, monomaniacal attempts to 'educate' me.

Lastly. Want to grow a pair and either cite the reference or apologize?

Still waiting for your source confirming location and year for this ditty.

"(And in some circles you'd find Catholics added as in the typical sign on an American tavern: No Jews, No Negroes, No Dogs, No Irish!)"
You weren't really trying to pass that off as a contemporaneous reflection on America, were you? You left that impression, asshat.

I won't hold my breath.

2:47 PM  
Anonymous biloxi said...

"...There are many scenes in the movie that have long grabbed my imagination, but none so much as the one in which Gandhi is seated at a table with a British military official. The official asks rhetorically, "You don’t really expect us just to march out of India, do you?" Gandhi replies, "Yes, that is exactly what I expect you to do." In 1947, they did.

What has this to do with Ron Paul, who is running for President? At least this much: he also opposes violence, he also opposes empire, and he also believes in the long run that justice will prevail. So, he does what Gandhi did. He keeps telling the story of how a better society can be built, must be built, and will eventually be built when men reduce their commitment to violence as a way of shaping the world. This includes violence committed by the civil government.

They called Gandhi the mahatma: the great self. Ron Paul is the mahatma of self-government."

Read the entire article by Gary North at lewrockwell ~

Wake up America because the real deal is that the Republican as well as Democrat "Party/ies" are not the important piece and until we stop allowing the "Iron Curtain Media" to fill our heads with nonsense ... we'll get more of the same ... Clinton, Kerry, Bush - "there's not a dime's worth of difference."

9:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For that never ending search of another Reagan, is it any surprise that GOP faithful look to another actor. The conservatives are starting to sound like the liberals of 30 years ago in their search for another Kennedy. How many pre-Thompson Reagan clones were there? George Allen was a shining star for 2008 until he blustered “macaca” that showed his as well as his party’s true colors (or lack of color to begin with). Any wonder why the GOP cannot attract working minorities to its ranks. Mitt Romney was featured on a NewsMax.com magazine cover as the second Reagan until Fred Thompson. Who and what is Mitt Romney? Just another boring old white millionaire pushing fossilized ideas and ensuring that we know he is a Mormon! As long as he pays his 10% tithing, the rich geriatric anointed all-white geezers in Temple Square in Salt Lake City will be sure to look the other way and mention nothing of his once pro-choice stance.

With last year’s mid-term losses and the South no longer a factor to retain control, the GOP is fitting to be the true party for the old Confederacy, a country that has been defunct for over 140 years! The Republicans are out of ideas and its philosophy has been discredited after 27 years. They offer the same old group of stale conservatives and conservatism. Gingrich is a womanizing has been that will guarantee more Republican losses if he is nominated. Giuliani, though not a conservative, is starting to sound like a Bushie when he talks of terrorists hating your freedom. Not a good move Rudy unless you are trying to appeal to the shrinking Bush-Rove base. McCain has turned into a neo-con and should start having his own “Mission Accomplished” banner to speak in front of.

Conservatives are still clutching on to a fantasy of America as Number One. Your ideology and party has accelerated the termination of an already dying empire. It has presided over the de-industrializing of America. Republican economic policies or lack of has eroded private sector dominance in the world economy and while America’s schools close, roads decay and millions go without health insurance in its crumbling social infrastructure, they can find enough money and resources to fund imperial military adventures in the Middle East, which of course will end in defeat for America. Conservatives and the GOP are quick to blame and pass laws to prosecute a single welfare mother who may have cheated the system out of several thousand dollars but have no qualms in corporate welfare that allow the rape of the public treasury of billions of dollars. Good example is Halliburton and the privatizing of the war in Iraq.

The GOP and conservative solutions for our education problems and school closings consisted of attempts to reintroduce school prayers and implementation of vouchers. What about healthcare or the problem of lack of insurance for the working poor? A simplistic and cosmetic tax deductible Medical Savings Account was their solution. These are the people who can least afford to live paycheck from paycheck but were told they needed to save money. Republican-backed free trade agreements with Mexico and Central and South America has done nothing to improve their respective economies and their citizens’ lives. We still have immigration problems of people fleeing economic or political oppression that exist in those countries where our free trade policies supposed to have helped. Undocumented immigrants compete for the same low paying jobs in American towns that those same policies devastated.

Get a grip guys. Reagan is dead and is rightfully where he belongs, six feet under along with outmoded conservative ideology. The liberals gave up on finding another Kennedy when Junior’s plane dived in the Atlantic. What’s it going to take for conservatives to realize that Ronnie and his form of conservatism are gone too?

If the Republicans can offer something new instead of monotonous flag waving cliché, and stop offering me the same group of old rich white guys claiming to be God fearing Reagan Republicans, who advocate an unregulated free economy while trying to regulate who I sleep with, what God I pray to or what a woman can do with her womb, then maybe this person of color who is independent voter will start to look at GOP candidates again. As of now with the debacle in Iraq and inflation rearing its ugly head, Fred Thompson is not going to save the GOP or conservatism. Looking at today’s Republicans and its base, it is difficult to fathom that the first African-American Senator since Reconstruction, Edward Brooke of Massachusetts was a Republican.

4:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Pentagon, The State Department, and the White House have all been recast as Mafia Goodfellas.

The GOPs cover story of being in Waste Management just doesn't cut it any more.

Seymour Hersh in The New Yorker reveals The General's Report: How Antonio Taguba, who investigated the Abu Ghraib scandal, became one of its casualties.

Major General Taguba had been in the Army 32 years, but the heat he felt during his investigation of prison abuse made him think he was in the Mafia.

With kickbacks, election rigging, no-bid contracts, attorney tampering, and other corrupt practicices, isn't the GOP using the Sopranos as their brand model?

4:53 PM  
Blogger enigma4ever said...

wow....what wonderful news...RNC woes...thank you....

Watergate Summer is back ...really Back...

I will sit and have a read here for a while.....
You always have such interesting posts...

1:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

30 days without LGND.

8:21 AM  
Anonymous Bill Pearman said...

Liberal Girl I think you hit every point directly on the nose. The Republican Party has decided that alienating all the people is a way to stay in power - talk about an oxymoron.
We need some real serious new blood in Washington and a lot of wrong-thinking Democrats needs to exit along with Bush and company. It's time people realized they have been voting against their own self-interest because they have been duped into thinking terrorism and liberals are our enemies. Our enemies are in the White House and Congress and Americans need to wake up and realize it. Any candidate for president, congress or state offices who's voting record supports big money and big business needs to be shown the door. Let them get back to the real world and work and see just what they have done to this country.
There will be no American Dream as long as these people remain in power - only an American nightmare.
Wake up America.

6:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

60 days without LGND

7:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

where the hell is the LGND???

1:35 PM  
Anonymous jonathan said...

LGND,

Some time ago you wrote that you were finding it difficult to keep up the blog while raising a family.

I suspose you have moved on now. It will be a great loss to liberals in particular, but also the nation as a whole, if you have stopped letting your voice be heard.

I suspect though, that you are still writting out there on the ether someplace. Let me know where, you have my email.

Jonathan

6:35 PM  
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2:47 AM  

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